May I ask: So if next time a terrorist successfully hides "devices" to kill Americans on a plane, because you seem to think TSA or airport security is over-excessive...What will you say?First of all, I am not advocating that we drop all security at our airports. What I oppose are the intrusive (and arguably unconstitutional) use of body scanning (or AIT) machines that can literally take a picture of one's naked body and/or the use of the new pat down procedures in which TSA officers are not necessarily instructed to "touch your junk" but come so close that many have and/or do. I find this level of scrutiny to be invasive and offensive.
What do we do instead? As I said, I am not saying that we should simply allow anyone and everyone to get on a plane simply because they have a ticket. (I should add that I would not oppose an airline that wanted to board planes with zero security. I don't think they would get much business, but it is within their right to do so.) What I am saying is that there are alternative methods of screening passengers that are far less invasive than what we do now and could actually make us more secure. That is, we wouldn't have to rely on machines that would not detect a "device" hidden inside of a would-be attacker.
For example, I drove across the U.S./Canada border about 5 years back. When I reached the border, an agent stopped me and asked why I was entering Canada. I explained that my wife and I had been driving/sightseeing in the northeastern area and wanted to go to Niagara Falls. When he looked at my ID, he noticed that I had a California driver's license but was driving a car with Virginia plates. He asked about this. I told him that the car was rented. He then asked how I got to the East coast in the first place... There is a bit more to this story; he asked me a few more questions. My point is, though, that if someone is lying, their story usually begins to fall apart around the third question or so. We should be employing a screening more along these lines.
In addition, technology (both advanced and not-so-advanced) allows for the detection of very small amounts of explosive material. One of these is the swab that you've seen TSA take of your bags and then run through a machine. They also have employed full body sized machines that simply blow a puff of air over you and analyze the result. Finally, a lower-tech solution of using bomb sniffing dogs is a possibility. Any of these would be as equally effective in ferreting out would-be terrorists and do not require anyone to virtually take off their clothes or have their junk touched.
I'll tell you one thing that WILL happen. We service members will fight a war again, just for you, because you complained of security being unnecessary.... The terrorists are waiting for us to put our guard down again. Think about that for a bit.....Thank you for your service. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the men and women in our military. I know that they all enter the service willing to die to protect the liberty and freedom upon which this country was founded, especially because I'm not sure that I would be able to make the same sacrifice. I would certainly like to think that I would, but I can't say for certain that that is true.
I agree with you that in the event of another terrorist attack, you will likely be called upon to go overseas and fight another war in the name of freedom. You should ask your commanding officers, and ultimately, the president, however, if your fighting in those wars makes us safer. Terrorist attacks do not take place in a vacuum. The Times Square bomber viewed himself as defending his "lands" against foreign occupation. The underwear bomber acted in retaliation for "American-backed airstrikes [...] in Yemen." Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda group attacked us on September 11th because of our interventionist foreign policies and our presence in Saudi Arabia. Don't forget that we actually backed Osama bin Laden in the 80's in his fight against the Soviet Union.
It goes on and on, and don't get me wrong. I fully support a strong national defense. What I oppose is a strong national offense that imposes U.S. will on other peoples. Despite the rhetoric, terrorists don't hate our freedoms. They just want us to leave them alone.
John Tyner, I UNDERSTAND what all is implied and I respect whatever you want to call this. Unfortunately you have forgotten why things are the way they are. How are you a "Hero". Tell ME that. Honestly brother, a person who self-consciously video records prior going through security had the attention to overembellish the true intent for TSA Security - FOR SAFETY and TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM GETTING KILLED.I have not forgotten September 11th. I am reminded of September 11th every time I enter an airport, every time a "suspicious package" is found at a public building, every time a U.S. soldier like yourself is killed fighting in the name of that terrible event. It truly is tragic.
"Never Forget" (looks like you all forgot)
Here's a video to jock your memory.
I am not a hero. I know that people have come to regard me as such, but I have explicitly disclaimed that title. I'm simply someone who stood up for what he believed to be right: that the government does not have the authority to view me naked or pat me down to the extent that they would have without some kind of reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
I have explained repeatedly the reason for my recording of my interaction with the TSA. I am not trying to over-embellish anything. In fact, the recording prevents me from doing exactly that. I don't doubt that TSA is trying to provide security for air travelers. So far though, they have done a poor job of it. Attacks on our airplanes since September 11th have been stopped by the passengers, not the TSA. It's time we started treating our passengers like the first (and arguably last) responders to a possible attack. We need to start treating them with dignity and respect and not like the very terrorists of whom we have now become so afraid.
I do not believe that being part of a police state is a "safer" place. If we do not hold on to our rights as people, and our dignity in public, there is nothing left to fight for. We have a system that is designed to keep the government from oppressing its people, we were founded on those principles, we should stick to them.
ReplyDeleteIsrael has great success in profiling (which law enforcement does every time they interact with you) and questioning passengers. We need to move toward a model that we know works.
PS : First post. ;)
-Lenny
I've heard that Israel's airport security is top flight (pardon the pun) and does not involve these scanners or invasive searches at all. In fact it involves using questioning techniques similar to what you mentioned at the border.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you keeping your calm and taking the time to post a constructive, thoughtful entry.
ReplyDeleteGood job, John. Don't let the scaremongers give you any shit, you exercise your rights and the TSA is attempting to punish you - fingers crossed they (rightfully) fail.
All the best from the UK,
Craig J.
I tip my hat to you Sir. You've set an example for us all to follow.
ReplyDeleteHERE IS ONE that I'm sure you hear:
ReplyDelete"You do realize flying is not a right it is a privilege."
REBUTTAL:
"You're wrong. We fly, by voluntarily contracting with airline companies. That freedom to contract is a right, not a privilege. Absent evidence of a threat to someones life or property, only yourself and the airline company (and airport) have a right to specify conditions for flying. The TSA's very existence is a violation of our freedoms. The sexual assault is just the latest absurd consequence of that basic immorality.
Airports and airlines should be entirely in control of security and how to manage it and we'd patronize the ones that give us the best service."
Thanks For YOUR Service in the INFOWAR;
David J. Hawkins
FL
My husband returned from Afghanistan earlier this year. Our military is fighting for OUR FREEDOM. How are people missing the fact that TSA employess feeling us up is an INVASION on that freedom? Our gov't is doing everything they can to strip those freedoms from us in the name of national security; 9/11 was just the excuse they needed.
ReplyDeleteI agree we need security at airports, duh. But I would be more inclined to fly with a plane full of armed people than a plane full of molested people. I can't imagine Hadji would tote a box cutter on a plane knowing every Tom, Dick and Harry could have a pistol.
I always appreciate your well thought out and well written blogs, even when we disagree on some topics. It is time for us to admit that Israel is much better at airport security than we are and we should either hire their agents or consultants to teach us how to do it without all the invasive scanners & body searches.
ReplyDeleteYou are truly a class act. I hope all Americans will develop this kind of respectful intolerance to our despotic government.
ReplyDeleteNot a hero? I disagree. The American Revolution began on street corners, in taverns, shops, markets, and around supper tables. You, my friend, have sparked the fire. It is now up to the American people to fan the flame and demand a return to the Constitution.
You are a great man. I am privileged to know you. You have set a great example for our children. We are using this event to show how one person can make a difference.
JavaJunky
The answer is simple: more racial profiling. I feel terrible to people of arab descent or those of the muslim religion that are subjected to additional screening, but the bottom line is that they look like the people who want to blow up planes. Just as we discriminate against 16 year old boys when it comes to the cost of car insurance, we need to discriminate against arabs and muslims at our airports. 16 year old boys tend to be dangerous drivers, so we charge them more to drive. Arab and Muslim men tend to blow up planes, so we subject them to additional airport screening.
ReplyDeleteIt may seem wrong, but my life is more important than their feelings. We're not forbidding them to fly, we just can't be too carful.
I salute a man that has the guts to stand up to the army of dimwitted drones that when you watch them at work don't care an ioda about what they do.
ReplyDeleteThey take away junk from you that really dose not affect the security of an aircraft but fail to find the things that do matter. And I can testify first hand to that.
They are but an arrogant, self righteous and pompous crowed and since they have been the standard at US airports I have cut my air travel down to the absolute must. I rather drive then keep up with the BS from TSA. So from 20-30 flights a year I do may be 1-2 now thank you TSA and the lies that support the BS they use to justify it. some one has the g
"We service members will fight a war again, just for you, because you complained of security being unnecessary"
ReplyDeleteIn other words, we should just surrender some freedoms so you don't have to fight to defend them?
Thank you for your response. It sounds like this soldier should have been required to read the Constitution before he swore to support and defend it.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1vmcJVIErA&feature=player_embedded
ReplyDeleteHere's something special for the TSA pervs LOL:)
@ the commenter who mentioned more racial profiling, I link you to this:
ReplyDeletehttp://boingboing.net/2010/11/05/young-asian-refugee.html
Racial profiling is useless, and unconstitutional.
@the commenter that wants all passengers to carry arms: Airplane cabins are pressurized. Were a firearm to be discharged inside the cabin there is a very high likelyhood that the plan would be depressurized. Not a good idea.
@all: We will never truly achieve safety. One can attempt to prevent attacks, but when a single lone wolf individual can come up with a crafty and stealthy plan, we are powerless to stop all of them. So the question becomes, how willing are we to expose ourselves to intrusive and UNNECESSARY searches?
To wit: The last flight that I was on, the passenger in front of me had all of his liquids in 4oz bottles. Problem was they were about two dozen 4oz bottles of purel. Anyone familiar with chemistry will tell you that purel is essentially napalm (jellied ethyl alcohol instead of jellied gasoline). He was allowed through.
Ignore any people who blather on about how this aids security. If the government told them jumping off a cliff would help security they would probably say "okay, is there an approved TSA-preferred position I should take."
ReplyDeleteI listened very carefully to your phone recordings. At no point were you hostile. You did much better than I would have. And what is wrong with recording your encounter? After all TSA has nothing to hide. Right?
I do not believe that being felt up should be a prerequisite to fly in the US. Let alone that it does not aid security. It is all window dressing.
If we do not stop this, I see us being subjected to even more invasive probes. Let those who think that the supposed "security" measures rocks be the first to bend over...
Bless you and thank you.
hey there,
ReplyDeleteI wrote something on my blog about your experience, and the different ways its being perceived on my blog. I have a different view than many, and I hope you'll take a look at it and give me your views in the spirit of open debate. Thanks, Omar...
http://hyphenatedrepublic.wordpress.com/2010/11/17/two-worlds-two-movements/
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dont-Touch-My-Junk-App/
ReplyDelete"I'm simply someone who stood up for what he believed to be right: that the government does not have the authority to view me naked or pat me down to the extent that they would have without some kind of reasonable suspicion or probable cause."
ReplyDeleteWhen will the United States start PROFILING. No group, other than MUSLIMS, have launched terrorist attacks against the United States.
Instead of subjecting all of us to this kind of screening, why don't we use the probable cause of being a MUSLIM to search these people more thoroughly.
If it should occur that a non-Muslim commits an act of terror, then we can revisit the subject.
As to John's statement:
"You should ask your commanding officers, and ultimately, the president, however, if your fighting in those wars makes us safer. Terrorist attacks do not take place in a vacuum. The Times Square bomber viewed himself as defending his "lands" against foreign occupation. The underwear bomber acted in retaliation for "American-backed airstrikes [...] in Yemen." Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda group attacked us on September 11th because of our interventionist foreign policies and our presence in Saudi Arabia. Don't forget that we actually backed Osama bin Laden in the 80's in his fight against the Soviet Union."
It is ignorant to believe the actions of the United States have instigated terrorism. These MUSLIMS are directed by their god to exterminate all people of other religions. To believe otherwise is a costly mistake.
I find it terribly disheartening that a soldier would speak up about how he has defended our liberty, and in the same post sanction actions our own Government is taking to erode the very notion of the liberty and freedom they are defending! It makes me question if it was indeed a true soldier's post.
ReplyDeleteWhen will our leaders "man up" and admit that there is another country who can do something better than us (Israel), and look to them for training/guidance?
As to the insistence by some to racially profile...well, I simply point to the likes of Timothy McVeigh and his cohorts. Yes, there are subversive AMERICAN good old boys who would like to shake up the nation too. Racially profiling IS unconstitutional, and frankly as useless as junk-pats.
Behavior-Profiling, a la Israel and the forementioned Canada border questioning however...do the math.
A little image I put together that pretty much sums it up for me: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=65148382&l=ecd41465d5&id=5210214
ReplyDeleteagain i say thank you.....our intelligence allowed the underwear bomber to fly, period. they said if they had revoked his visa it could have alerted him to the fact they were watching him. he could have blown up the plane but i guess it doesn't matter because they would have been able to catch more terrorists by watching him....wtf!!! if he is dead and takes hundreds more with him you can't watch anyway. it is a known fact that the intel community lets terrorists into the u.s. to watch them...what if they lose them which common sense tells me they can and do. i am not willing to submit myself to humiliation and criminal treatment that can easily be duped by "real" terrorists because our intelligence community is choosing their investigations over innocent american lives. that they deem a terrorist more important than a plane load of passengers and crew is CRIMINAL!!!!!
ReplyDeleteI wish someone would bring up the point that when citizens become fearful and uncooperative with the very people who are supposed to be making us safe, then the system is in peril.
ReplyDeleteOh, wait, I just did that.
I mean, here's the thing. We want the good and honest people, the majority of the people who want to get on planes, to want to cooperate and work with law enforcement and security officials. We want them to cooperate, because that makes it easier to distinguish between them and potential criminals, because theoretically, they will stand out as trying to thwart the system in some way.
But now we all want to thwart the system. We want to avoid having naked pictures taken of us or having strangers put hands on our genitals. So now we all start to look like suspects to the authorities. Which makes it that much harder to see the real suspects, who have probably figured out a way around this security theater anyhow.
So I would argue that when you go too far, as I feel the TSA has long-since passed, and make average, decent citizens afraid of you, then you have failed in your job of keeping everyone safe.
I'm very compelled by your story, John. I've felt angry with the TSA for a long time - having read stories for years about inappropriate conduct and personally experienced bullying from them. But I have never had any opportunity or cause to really stand up to them. And even now, I think I would be afraid to do what you did if someone asked me to choose between walking through a body image scanner or going through an "enhanced" pat-down. As a woman both of these things feel like assault.
I still have hope that corrections will be made, but people have been saying for years that what happens at airport security is theater and intimidation and overreaching. I am very appreciative of you bringing so much press to the subject - perhaps enough people will be emboldened by your acts that the TSA will see what I am saying, which is that this whole operation has the potential to cause security personnel to focus on the wrong things, instead of the right ones.
As many travelers have discovered, these creeps can change the rules any time they feel like it. I wonder how the compliant fliers I see interviewed on TV would resist a cavity search, if that's what the TSA demanded when they got to the front of the line. Would they cite the Fourth Amendment? They've already established that they don't give a hoot about that.
ReplyDeleteAnd thanks, John, for pointing out the most important thing: It is American politicians who have caused this grief in the first place by meddling in the affairs of other nations for decades.
Good for you for standing up not only for yourself, but for the rest of us, Johnny. And if the TSA is stupid enough to press ahead with some absurd civil penalty, do not be shy about putting up a donation mechanism. I, for one, will be happy to throw in some cash, since, as I said, I consider what you're doing to be a stand for all of us, and, accordingly, I'm happy to help out with some expenses.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTo the posters who mention profiling and more specifically the one who says "When will the United States start PROFILING. No group, other than MUSLIMS, have launched terrorist attacks against the United States.
ReplyDeleteInstead of subjecting all of us to this kind of screening, why don't we use the probable cause of being a MUSLIM to search these people more thoroughly.
If it should occur that a non-Muslim commits an act of terror, then we can revisit the subject."
I suggest you do a bit more reading.
First, read your Constitution and tell me where profiling fits in it.
Second, look up the name Timothy McVeigh or Oklahoma City. No Muslims involved, no plane either. If you do not consider blowing up that building terrorism, I don't know what you call it.
The basis for good security starts with common sense, not paranoia.
Kudos to you for all you have done. You have sparked a tinderbox of resentment at government over-reach and a fundamental violation of our rights. The "Choice" of a virtual strip-search or a genitals/breasts groping "pat-down" is un-American. Along with many provisions of the patriot act, this is taking us one step closer to the always-watching "Big Brother" state, or the ubiquitous and mandatory iris-scanners seen in "Minority Report". It makes my skin crawl.
ReplyDeleteI hope your actions will spark enough outrage that the government is forced to retreat on this one. Thank you for what you have done.
--Jeff
P.S. I get the feeling some people may view folks who won't just swallow these new rules as 'right-wingers'. I'm a left-leaning centrist who almost always votes Democrat...and I'm just as outraged by this as anyone else.
I was patted down in Amsterdam a couple of years ago but I wasn't warned ahead of time and didn't have a choice to refuse. I was SHOCKED. I told my husband afterward that NO WOMAN HAS EVER TOUCHED ME LIKE THAT! OMG. I felt so violated and confused. Of course, I was in a foreign country so there was ABSOLUTELY NOTHING I COULD DO. But NOW, you can bet, I will boycott airlines until this is ruled unconstitutional. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteFieldstone
The comment from the "service member" is ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteI too am a service member. I fought and nearly died for our country on several occasions, and I don't appreciate being treated like a terrorist, being blasted with radiation and subjected to humiliating treatment as a pre-requisite to travel. And I do not enjoy watching the same treatment of civilians either.
Another contribution to this discussion, inspired by John:
ReplyDeletehttp://theredpilljournal.blogspot.com/2010/11/open-letter-to-janet-napolitano.html
Someone mentioned Israeli airport security. Nobody understands more the terrorist threat or how to deal with it relative to air travel. With not a single incident in nearly 4 decades, they clearly are doing something right. Here's what one Israeli security expert has to say about our pathetic and inefficient system: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteYou got a shout out in the senate hearing today. Its at the end... senator from Texas stated that you should NOT be fined for what you did. TSA guy agreed.
-Lenny
John, the world is listening.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say it is intrusive to take a picture of one's naked body and that the pat down procedures are invasive and offensive, candidly I think you have some type of personal deep seated hang up on this beyond the scope of this debate.
Why is it intrusive? Does anyone really care what my backside or frontside looks like? Is the TSA going to announce on loud speakers through the airport the top ten funniest naked X-rays? I could see that would be intrusive. The truth is the government already knows more about you and I than we can possibly imagine, just by typing this exchange on a blog site. My vote is to get over the invasiveness argument and really ask yourself why it bothers you so much. Candidly I’d rather have an X-ray then sit in an airport bathroom stall for more than five minutes. I find the airport bathrooms invasive and somewhat unnerving personally. My vote get over it and move on, if you have to fly you get scanned. Period. If you don’t like it, drive.
I respectfully think you should also detail further your concerns on the pat down. So what? Were you one of the guys that couldn’t walk around in the high school locker room naked? They aren’t going to fondle anything; they say on the video exactly what they are going to do, no more, no less.
You mention the military. I’m not sure if you have served, but respectfully if you have not I think a trip to basic training, where you might scrub a few toilets at 2am and have someone scream at you because your underwear isn’t folded right might be good for you. Life has things that we can control and some things we cannot. Yeah I don’t really dig the whole idea of a scan or a pat down. But they can do that all they need to me even if there is a remote chance it might have some affect at all on diverting a terrorist incident.
With Respect.
Thank you for being a true American Patriot sir. I wonder what you think about this man's actions on a youtube video I was recently made aware of. Go to Youtube.com and type in "Man Assaulted by Alaska State Fair Security". God bless all of you freedom fighters.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that after 9/11 everyone bitched that security was way too far from perfect...now that the TSA is trying to ensure flight safety people are bitching because its too secure.... Get over it, you can't have it all. If another incident happened this guy would be bitching that security isn't tight enough again.
ReplyDeleteI think that what you did was heroish, because you dared to stand up for your believes.
ReplyDeleteAnd I personally do not understand why the airport should be a zone in which the security is allowed to do anything and everything. why are they allowed to discriminate you!?
Terrorism, yes. It is for your own safety, I understand that. but why has nobody yet thought about trains and underground systems? Busses, cabs, tramways? All of these could be filled with terrorists and nobody cares!
It is just a ridiculous thought that every second hides a bomb on the airport! An explosion of an undergroung train would kill lots of people as well. But the security focuses in a maniac way on the Airport that goes simply too far!
Filming the scene was critically though. It is actually forbidden to record or film any events on the Airport...
Kind regards,
take care.
"@the commenter that wants all passengers to carry arms: Airplane cabins are pressurized. Were a firearm to be discharged inside the cabin there is a very high likelyhood that the plan would be depressurized. Not a good idea."
ReplyDeleteI understand what you're saying, but if it comes down to a weapon being fired, chances are, the plane was going down anyways.
To the 10:13 poster, "Why is it intrusive?"
Do you have children? Are you married? Would you want an overweight, greasy TSA agent putting his hand on your wife's vag or fondling your childs testicles? As a parent, I drill into my kids that no one has the right to touch them, for any reason.
I've seen police patdowns that aren't as intrusive as TSA patdowns. Added to that, at least the police are patting people down that have done something worse than purchasing a plane ticket. Not always, but for the most part.
When enough people are outraged and the gov't still refuses to do anything about it, therefore killing the airline industry...do you want YOUR tax dollars bailing them out? After all, the travel industry is probably "too big to fail."
I hear the argument all the time that the American military are in Afganistan and Iraq to fight for our rights and freedoms.
ReplyDeleteCould someone explain to me which of our American rights and freedoms they are protecting in countries which a vast majority of Americans will never visit? I didn't realize we had any rights in foreign countries. What ever happened to "the law of the land"?
When a foreigner comes here and tries to change laws, they are told by some to go home. Isn't America just as guilty of imposing their laws/beliefs on foreign people as the foreign people are being accused of when they come here?
In regards to "remembering Sept. 11" Let me state that I was there, stood and watched everything crumble from the streets of lower Manhattan. To this day, I laugh when people buy into what they've been "told" about the events that unfolded. Yet, that's another topic altogether.
ReplyDeleteIt's beyond annoying for people, especially people who weren't there, to use 9/11 as fuel for Police State fire. It's absurd.
Props to you. You did precisely what I would have. In fact, if I'm told I'll be patted down, I'm just going to start undressing, completely.
This country BADLY needs to come back to center... AKA that uncommon, common sense.
Kudos to the service men & women (& their spouses) who know what is they're fighting for!
ReplyDeleteI agree 100% with the spouse that advocates ALL passengers that want to & who have the skills allowed to fly armed. If there was an airline which required all passengers to be armed, I would fly it every chance I got. That's how to get real security & without government tyranny & without higher taxes to pay for it!
And it IS ignorant to think that US involvement & meddling worldwide does not lead to terrorism against us. How would feel if a foreign military occupied your neighborhood or over threw your government?
Bravo John! Thank you for standing up to authority to defend our rights & freedom!
John,
ReplyDeletedespite you having checked the website of the TSA and it showed that SAN didn't have body scanners you opted to buy tickets anyways. I not saying that the pat down is right or wrong. However if you want to fly then you should be able to feel safe.
Safe being having gone through a security screening; whether you are white, brown, yellow, christian or Muslim.
You should have known that those machines are being deployed throughout the states so its just a matter of time before every airport has one of them.
This says it all:
ReplyDelete"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." 4th Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States
I applaud you for your tone when handling this encounter (the recording) You might enjoy this column which reflects your view
ReplyDeletehttp://www.troymedia.com/2010/01/09/increased-security-measures-a-blow-to-our-personal-liberty/
I agree with Lenny that the current security measures do not make me feel any safer. I consider the TSA as incapable of doing an efficient job and their harassement is more of a show and tell to give travelers the impression that something relevant is being done. The real solution is to get intelligence on terrorist activity, relevant profiling and better foreign policies. The government has done an excellent job on spreading fear and using it to control people. All they need to say is the magic word 911 and everyone will shut up and willingly give up their rights. They've been distorting the truth, making people believe that if they don't comply they will surely die in the next attack. Keeping us safe is not about making us give up our rights, putting in lame security measures at the airport and hiring incompetent people who will abuse their power. Our line of defense starts way before a potential terrorist enters an airport and is about to board a plane. The current security measures will not prevent them from carrying out their attacks for they are inefficient. All they will do is ensure that your everyday traveller doesn't carry any tweazers or toothpaste in his bag while they randomly take people out of line to pat them down. Just to let you know how incompetent the security measures are: only a few months ago I had a backpack with me that I usually use for hiking and rockclimbing. Since I was in a rush I didn't get to check out all its content. At the airport screening I was told that there was a tweezer in there that had to be removed (Oh yeah, I was planning to hijack a plane with a pair of tweezers...) So they took them away not realizing that I had a knife left in my pack. I laughed when I realized that later. Job well done, TSA.
ReplyDeleteIt's all about money.
ReplyDeleteThe manufacturers of those machines will grow rich and fat.
What you have done is the dumbest thing I have seen in a long time. The TSA agents are only trying to keep bombs and such from getting on the plane. If you dont want a scan or to be patter down.... THEN DONT FLY!!!! I would gladly go through a scan or a pat down because I have nothing to hide. I would rather everyone go through a scan and know that I was safe on the plane than to have idiots say "dont touch my junk" and have a bomb go through a pat down because it was hidden behind your small ball sack. A scan may take an image of your whole body true, but if you have seen one penis you've seen them all!!! I feel its better safe than sorry. We need to stop weapon from entering the planes and endangering peoples lives. So shut up, submit to the scan and get on the plane. That would make everyones job a lot easier. PS people dont want to see your tiny penis anyways!
ReplyDeleteI am with you!
ReplyDeleteI have yet to see HLS & TSA be PRO-ACTIVE and NOT re-active.
Everytime something different happens, with a shoe bomb, underwear bomb or cargo bomb they change their procedures. DUH!
People always forget the meaning of TERRORISM - the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion (Wikipedia).
By having Americans change their ways, be always fearful, on the look-out, giving up privacy in the name of security terrorism already won!
How long will people accept the imposed fear and give up themselves in the process?
Where are the boundaries?
Unfortunately, only the voice of the people can change things, and if enough are bothered more than what they are afraid, methods and procedures will change...
Or not!
What another Anonymous said: "These MUSLIMS are directed by their god to exterminate all people of other religions."
ReplyDeleteDo the French have a different "god" because they say Deus? Or the Spanish because they say Dios? Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. One God.
Islam is based on the Old Testament. Jesus is a Messenger of God for the Muslims.
Many people talk about Islam and have absolutely no idea what Christianity is.
Terrorists are as Muslim as Jim Jones was Christian.
Don't talk about politics, being a hero, freedom, Iraq, 9/11 etc.. you are just a dumbass! period! you are one of those guys who thinks they are smarter than anybody who is doing his job and you've tried to give a hard time to the wrong person. OMG they are going to see your "junk" cmon..you are not pamela anderson...you want to charge for seeing your "junk"? get real
ReplyDeleteAfter hearing about your little stunt and then seeing your picture it all makes sense.....some one didn't love you enough when you were little.Just another jack a** in need of some attention.
ReplyDeleteJohn, Maybe we can just get TSA to take over the Mexican border. WOW. Then NO ONE would get through without getting their 'junk' checked, and THAT would stop the flow of illegals into CA!
ReplyDeleteWe are wildly inconsistent in how we work to frisk the average citizen "for our safety" BUT put so little into the Borders, deportation of known illegals in our country, etc.
Thanks for your service in bring all this discussion to the top of the stack again.
RonD
Don't let the security theater nuts get you down John! Many of us agree with you that the TSA goes too far. Most people posting here probably haven't been through an airport since these new procedures were enacted Nov.1. As a business traveler, I see these abuses every day.
ReplyDeleteI would have walked away too in your situation.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and decided that I need to say it as often and to as many people as possible.
ReplyDeleteI am opposed to the use of WBI and physical searches for primary screening. I support, wholeheartedly, the abolition of both of these practices immediately. I believe the TSA should be disbanded and airport security should be returned to the private sector as it was on Sept 9, 2001.
I understand fully that this means some day my ticket might get punched by a terrorist on an airplane with some kind of weapon, explosive or incendiary device. I accept this risk because it is the price of living in a free society, and I do it gladly.
Some day, I'm going to die. That is an inescapable fact. The only things I don't know right now are how and when it will happen. If it comes to pass that I am the average, regular civilian merely going about my daily life of earning a living or taking a vacation when it happens, I will pay the price gladly. I have considered the argument that if it was one of my loved ones who died on 9/11, I would feel differently. This is exactly the kind of attitude that is contrary to the foundations of the United States.
I want it to be known here and now that I choose to live free. I will die the same way. I hope that if I die in a terrorist attack, everyone who loves me will remember this and not try to say that I'd be alive 'If only'. That is not the kind of life I want to live. If the price of your kids being free to move about without being photographed naked and having their genitals touched by government agents is my blood, then I will pay it gladly.
If I die in a terrorist attack, let this be my epitaph:
I knew the risks, I bought the ticket, and I paid the price of admission. I did it willingly, gladly, and without regret. I would do it again. I was free.
Yesterday morning I was subjected to one of these "pat downs" even after participating in the body scan. I include my violating and humiliating experience below, and if I ever regain the courage to fly again I will refuse this treatment.
ReplyDeleteThe new wave of airport security procedures and techniques seems perfectly acceptable or even practical until you are the victim of an intimate, violating, and humiliating “pat down” which bordered on groping and sexual assault. As a person who always tries to follow the rules and regulations, I am always prepared for airport security. However nothing could have prepared me for what I went through at the Honolulu airport on the morning of Tuesday, November 16, 2010. When I arrived at the airport, I was cooperative and prepared. I took my shoes off, put my toiletries in a separate bag, took my jacket off and patiently waited my turn. I was directed to the body scanner. I had absolutely nothing in my pockets and no belt or additional items of clothing. I only wore a pair of jeans and a simple cotton top. I stepped into the scanner and then was told to wait to the side. They said something came up, but would not explain what. Through this process, they did not communicate to me what was going on or why they were holding me. As the scanner is an x-ray, I do not understand what could possibly have shown up. I was then quickly swept into a private room again without any explanation of what was happening. In this room, I was intimately patted down which blurred into groping and sexual assault. I found this process extraordinarily invasive, violating, humiliating and uncalled for. I felt that I was being treated like a criminal when I had done absolutely nothing wrong. In addition, the officials refused to explain why I had been led into the room despite my full cooperation with the body scan. I felt trapped in a situation which I did not fully understand until I was in the midst of being felt up. I had absolutely nothing on my body which posed a threat or anything other than the clothing on my back. I asked them what could possibly have shown up, as I had nothing but basic clothing on, and I never wanted to experience this intrusive procedure again. The women in the room gave me no other explanation then it could be anything, buttons on my jeans? The system is obviously flawed if the buttons on your jeans lead you into a private room with a followed groping. I was willing to participate in the body scan, but based on this experience the machine is faulty, and the immediate second step should not be a full a pat down which includes intimately and roughly touching my entire body. I left this room traumatized, and this event will haunt me for the rest of my life. I have never felt more violated or persecuted. Currently, I am extremely discouraged to ever fly again, and when I do gain enough courage to do so, I will be terrified every time that I enter the security check point, as this location has become a site of trauma and anxiety. While I understand TSA’s desire to protect against terrorism, it is appalling that this type of intimate and invasive search is becoming common procedure, and is used without serious consideration of circumstances.
Thank you!
ReplyDelete"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--Benjamin Franklin
Anonymous at 11:20 AM said: The TSA agents are only trying to keep bombs and such from getting on the plane. If you dont want a scan or to be patter down.... THEN DONT FLY!!!! would gladly go through a scan or a pat down because I have nothing to hide. I would rather everyone go through a scan and know that I was safe on the plane than to have idiots say "dont touch my junk" and have a bomb go through a pat down because it was hidden behind your small ball sack.
ReplyDelete------------------------------
Did you even read the story? He didn't fly. So then why are they suing and/or fining him? Not everyone goes through a scan. By your logic, everyone should! John did his due dilligence. He went to the TSA website to see if they had these x-ray machines and it said they didn't. Also, these machines are useless in preventing terrorism. It's just another intrusion into our rights.
Back in colonial times, one of the big original sticking points we had with the British was over "writs of assistance." These were basically undefined "go get 'em, boys!" warrants that let the holder search at what was very close to pure whim. We found them unendurable. They ARE unendurable.
ReplyDeleteThose writs of assistance were used here to combat smuggling. Actually, we *were* smuggling, and a lot. Heh. My point being that the writs of assistance, which remain repellant abuses of authority, had more to back them up than our current unreasonable-search procedures at airports.
If we throw away every shred of rights or dignity that we possess, we still won't be able to close every path to a determined criminal. Even if I didn't care about our rights or dignity, it's a sucker's game trying to make security "perfect."
But I do care about our rights and dignity. And I am quite certain that we are considerably more SAFE when we recognize that dehumanizing our citizens and visitors to this country is not only WRONG but counterproductive. Even if we are not COMPLETELY safe in EVERY instance. Even if I'm the person who dies because a criminal exploits a loophole. That could happen when I walk down the street. Sucks, but it's life. WE ARE NOT COWARDS.
As far as I'm concerned, what this country is ABOUT is that every individual has potential and a contribution that s/he MIGHT be able to make. Not that every individual is a crime waiting to happen, a disease that needs to be controlled.
You want real airline security at no additional cost to taxpayers & without infringement of our rights? Let those of us with the skills, means, and successful background checks fly armed. I'd gladly fly any airline that *required* their passengers to fly armed. Special ammunition would reduce any potential damage to sensitive electronics, or puncturing the aircraft skin on a pass through shot or even a miss. As for depressurization concerns, it isn't catastrophic like the movies. Simply drop to a lower elevation. Pilots do this "all the time" in such situations.
ReplyDeleteCould the disgust of these searches, in particular the advanced imaging screening, stem from America's fear of sex? How horrible could it possibly be for someone to look at you naked? Are we scared of being judged? Are we scared of the creepy people who have to look at these scans of our bodies? Are they going to store these images in their wank reel? Is this really just about invasion of privacy? A computer shows a digital representation of you to another human, and suddenly your rights are violated? There are bigger fish to fry out there, loosen up buddy, strike a pose and let the camera show your good side.
ReplyDeletePS
I am under the assumption that you declined the scanner, and volunteered to be patted down. Wise choice...
Well done, John. As usual. You just keep on proving my opinion of what your role in this issue should be. :)
ReplyDeleteTo the posters who disagree with John's actions - don't you realize that doing nothing but insulting and calling names makes YOU look less intelligent? If you disagree, state your case civilly - it actually serves to strengthen your argument.
One of the news programs on Monday had a former security chief for El Al as a guest. Their approach is similar to that which you described at the US/Canada border, along with a thorough luggage search. They do zero profiling - by which I mean that every single passenger is subjected to the same security parameters. He has reached out to the TSA and has been dismissed. (The reasoning? Because El Al is a small airline.) You can watch the video here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/40200870#40200870
"Honestly brother, a person who self-consciously video records prior going through security had the attention to overembellish the true intent for TSA Security - FOR SAFETY and TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM GETTING KILLED."
ReplyDeleteDear God. I couldn't let it slide.
One videotapes situations with Police Officers, Lawyers and this case, TSA Agents BECAUSE they needn't the incident to be deemed an "overembellish"ment and thrown out. It is the situation that requires the imprint, not "intentions."
Ahem. Anyway, John, I'm rooting for ya. I am even more thrilled that you have a publicly accessible blog. The links have been delivered.
Hey i just wanted to inform you that i blogged about all of this, including the creepy threat to "investigate" you over at patterico's pontifications. I don't seem to be able to put a web address in the comment, so I will just suggest you google it. if you do it soon, or with your name in the search it should be one of the first hits. The title of the post is "John Tyner: The Nail That Sticks Up Will Be Hammered Down (Update: Penn’s Justice)."
ReplyDeleteI suspect our politics are a little different on alot of thing, and i am honestly not sure what to think about the TSA policy you were objecting to. But certainly you should be allowed to back out of the flight once they say they want to put their hands on you.
Anyway, let me know if you, like, need to start a legal fund. I am very, very good at getting people to send links your way for that purpose.
Aaron Worthing.
I was with you until I came across your comments:
ReplyDelete"I fully support a strong national defense. What I oppose is a strong national offense that imposes U.S. will on other peoples. Despite the rhetoric, terrorists don't hate our freedoms. They just want us to leave them alone...."
And that makes you a bonafide idiot. You've had your 15 minutes of fame; I suggest that you now open your eyes and get educated. You don't seem to have a clue why Islamic terrorists are killing people in every country every day. In your bizarre fantasy of a world, Islamic murderers are simply Greta Garbo-esque figures who "just vant to be left alone...."
What I would say in response to the person in that email is "I am more willing to live with the risk of being blown up in a terrorist attack on a plane than essentially be treated as a criminal to the state in the name of security. Service members are fighting first for our liberty and second for our security."
ReplyDeleteLest we forget, again:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." -- 4th Amendment to the US Constitution
The answer is simple: more racial profiling. I feel terrible to people of arab descent or those of the muslim religion that are subjected to additional screening, but the bottom line is that they look like the people who want to blow up planes. Just as we discriminate against 16 year old boys when it comes to the cost of car insurance, we need to discriminate against arabs and muslims at our airports. 16 year old boys tend to be dangerous drivers, so we charge them more to drive. Arab and Muslim men tend to blow up planes, so we subject them to additional airport screening.
ReplyDeleteIt may seem wrong, but my life is more important than their feelings. We're not forbidding them to fly, we just can't be too carful.
November 17, 2010 7:57 AM
It is people like you that prove the education system in America has failed. Not every "Arab" is Muslim. Plenty of Arabs are CHRISTIAN. Once again how does one look as an Arab? There are middle easterners who have blond hair and blue eyes. There are middle easterners with green eyes. I know Middle Eastern men with red hair. Are you going to stop black men as well? Black men who converted/reverted to Islam?
"Arab and Muslim men tend to blow up planes"
ARAB MUSLIM extremists blew up planes. Not Arabs. Not Muslims.
Hey ! They should sue Xbox Kinect for scan your body ! Jacka**s...
ReplyDeleteProfiling, as much as you think will help, is NOT what the Israelis do. I remember an attempt stopped in the 90s - a PREGNANT Israeli woman who had an Arab boyfriend was sent off with a bomb in her suitcase to get on a plane in London. She had no idea it was there. He was willing to sacrifice her, and their unborn child, in the name of whatever his cause was.
ReplyDeleteThe Israelis do not profile. What they do requires intelligence and training.
Despite the angry veterans who are writing you, the solution to this problem is quite simple.
ReplyDeleteThe United States government has decided that the best policy of action is to be the "policemen of the world" against the warnings of our founding fathers.
This, understandably, has had all kinds of undesired consequences. The rise of terrorism, the creation of fear among our populace, and a financial cost so great that we are now borrowing and printing money to pay for our excesses.
So it must be understood that we would not need all of this high security if we were not out gallivanting around the world and trying to be the policeman of the entire planet.
It was once said by Thomas Jefferson, "Commerce with all, alliances with none".
This is why we have lost our way. Free trade, defense of the homeland, and pulling out of all these foreign countries is the only "real" security we can give ourselves.
Otherwise, friend will be pitted against friend, as we squabble over the old security vs freedom arguments.
If we are to be a free country, we must act like a free country. A free country does not live in fear, a free country does what is right, according to individual decision making, and not coerced and abusive government centralization schemes.
I don't understand how those that are enlisted can be so blind to the oath they made. You are 'Oath Keepers' sworn to uphold the Constitution no matter what from enemies both foreign and domestic. Please, read it, understand it and understand why it's important. I beg of you, please.
ReplyDeleteHere's a link to a poster I just created, free to use and distribute in response to the TSA's policies that are authorized by your favorite creepy Uncle.
ReplyDeletePlease digg this and get the word out, thanks Mr. Tyner!
http://digg.com/news/politics/the_touchy_feely_uncle_flickr_photo_sharing
Excellent Steve Chapman article (Chicago Tribune columnist) today.http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-oped-1114-chapman-20101114,0,3696372.column
ReplyDeleteGo Mr. Tyner!!
John, I know there is a lot of talk about your TSA situation and I must say I am heartened by your actions to civilly chose not to be screened by the methods that are uncomfortable to you.
ReplyDeleteThe new scanners and any scanner that isn't just a normal metal detector, along with the pat down methods that so many have issue with are not something everyone should feel forced to be subjected to, just because a TSA agent says you have to.
Right now so many people assume they must follow along with methods of selecting people they want to screen differently or interview. You may have not wanted all of this fallout or buzz around the situation to be going on, but I must thank you for doing what you did to show that we as a society aren't doing enough to cherish our civil rights and of those around us.
No doubt I would hope I would be civilly discussing your view of the screening to personnel. Wish you the best, thanks for being a voice of reason in a time of seemingly no reason.
John, if the TSA happens to file a lawsuit, you might want to have this video clip of Shepard Smith interviewing TSA administrator John Pistole:
ReplyDeletehttp://video.foxnews.com/v/4423381/tsa-chief-defends-enhanced-pat-downs/
At about 6:40 in the video, Shepard Smith asks about whether the lawsuit will happen. John Pistole replies that he has "no intent on assessing a fine on someone who reasonably did not want to go through security." This may be of great help to you.
Thank you John for everything you've done so far. Especially by posting well thought out and well written blog posts here to keep the discussion going. We need to make sure this doesn't die.
ReplyDeleteI think that no matter how much we complain about these new procedures, there is only one way the government and industry will listen, and that is to stop flying. I know you are reluctant to be labeled a hero. But you are a modern day Rosa Parks, and this is our Montgomery Bus Boycott.
The country is going through a Great Recession and it has hit me financially as much as many other people. A boycott would certainly extend the recession even further. But I'd much rather be in a recession because I stood up for my rights than be in one because greedy financial institutions wanted to screw over the American public.
Take the ball and run with it John. You are our rallying point and you are the one to call for a boycott. I beg of you.
-Bryan in CA
"@the commenter that wants all passengers to carry arms: Airplane cabins are pressurized. Were a firearm to be discharged inside the cabin there is a very high likelyhood that the plan would be depressurized. Not a good idea."
ReplyDeleteA single bullet might be able to depressurize the cabin, but it wouldn't rip the plane apart or anything that damaging to stop the plane from flying.
It would, however, force anyone trying to cause trouble on the plane to be locked to a seat with an oxygen mask or they would fall unconscious from trying to move about the plane without it. It would allow passengers to restrict movement of the aggressive person. At the very least it would help prevent hijacks and hostage situations.
Remember, an armed society is a polite society.
I believe the quote is "Give me Liberty or give me death", not take my liberty and give me safety.
ReplyDeleteI am not against security measures being in place to protect, but these are 1)not working 2)a complete invasion and 3)unconstitutional.
I am glad someone decided to stand up and stand against this type of treatment. I know that I will also, should the time arise that I am put in this situation.
Is this american soldier also aware that the same government that backs this TSA Security Theater nonsense also the same government that puts hundreds of his brothers in arms on watchlists, simply because they have spent so much time overseas IN UNIFORM, fighting? I am told it often takes the actions of a general in order to get them off the list.
ReplyDeleteAfter the incident at Fort Hood, I can only imagine such a situation being exacerbated.
-nick (in IN)
while I am in agreement with the general principle mr. tyner is fighting for, I do have some concerns. if it is a matter of civil liberties, im sure mr. tyner would agree that secretly recording a conversation and image of people and subsequently posting it for the world to see isnt entirely the most suitable method for objection.
ReplyDeleteIm certain if an employee felt mr. tyner were doing something improper in the workplace secretly recorded and leaked his behavior, there would be an issue of privacy being invaded there as well.
Again, agree in principle, but be careful the route taken to resolve the difference.
i think we forget that so much of our unwise policy making is due to the fact that top officials are in bed with companies that make these machines. So even if there is no need for them, they will push for the sale that way the company and the official have a financial windfall.
ReplyDeleteThe losers in every way are the taxpaying citizen.
TSA is going to turn people into GAY people by feeling people up their privates. because only the TSA faggot guys can feel up a passenger guy. and only the TSA lesbo girlies are allowed to feel up a passenger girl. that's so GAY. and that's like getting to second base, third base depending on how far they go. yeah, the TSA is so GAY. either you go through the x-ray machine if you want to get on the plane. or you let the GAY TSA do some feeling up on you. or it's time to ride the bus and the train again. TSA=GAY
ReplyDeleteThank you :)
ReplyDeleteAnyone who says that we should racially profile arabs in an idiot. If we do that, then they won't have any issues of coercing a blond haired blue eyed person into detonating a bomb just the same
ReplyDeleteExtremists of any faith blow things up. Remember Tim McVeigh? Not Arab, but European American. Not Muslim, but Christian (as raised, anyway). Remember the Unabomber? How about those who blow up women's health clinics and murder the medical personnel? Terrorism is just as alive an well inside the US as it is anywhere else in the world.
ReplyDeleteExtremism is not something you can profile without reading minds. No scanner, no profiling method, nothing will ever deter someone who is smart enough and willing enough to try to kill other people. For every measure, there will be a countermeasure. The only way to make flying 100% secure is to ban all humans from flying.
As for airport security, there is nothing "secure" about it; it is nothing more than "security theater"; an expensive play put on to make the flying public "feel good" and nothing more.
Available for a radio interview with BBC World Service? Pls call 011 44 207 557 1511 or email bard.aune@bbc.co.uk asap. Cheers!
ReplyDeleteEver since 911, I keep asking the question, "Why is our southern border wide open"? Border Patrol admits, there are over 100,000 OTM, (Other than Mexicans), every year being caught crossing into the U.S. This clearly shows "terrorist" can cross easily, but the airports are doing "What"? I have not traveled by air since 911 as it clearly showed security is a joke!
ReplyDeleteThis whole issue with TSA is obscene! If a man or even a childs father touch a little child or a woman in the way they do, they would go to jail on pedophile charges!
Follow the money on this as to who benefits & study Nazi profile. Are you ready for the conditioning? Or are you already there?
Even though you say you don't like to be called a hero, you are. It took alot of courage to stand up and do what you did. More people need that courage so we can take back the freedoms we are supposed to have in this country. Bravo to you!!
ReplyDeleteYou rock, thank you for standing up for your rights. The video is enough evidence for me. You were as cordial and polite as you could have been in that situation. You had every right to do what you did. I'm not so sure I wouldn't have said the same thing considering my last time through an airport in 2004 leaving TX.
ReplyDeleteI had my breast and butt grouped by a pimply faced TSA agent. I'm white, brown hair, blue eyes and was in shorts, tank top and flip flops. While it was obvious I was pulled aside, I'm still wondering...why'd they pick on you?
One more American for John and our Constitutional rights.
--
“When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."; - Thomas Jefferson
Personally, I respect not only what John did but how he conducted himself in doing it.
ReplyDeleteI do find the comments made by so many service members attacking John to be quite funny. I was born into and grew up in the military and many of my friends went on to join, so I'm not so quick to bow down anytime military members question our loyalties when we question government policy.
The Constitution is not only for service people but all citizens. Furthermore, GIs (government issue) do what they're told very often without consideration for the consequences of their actions; it's the civilians that are having the open debates about what our country should and shouldn't be doing.
Kyle R.
FYI, did you know they're spinning the story in a manner that suggests that YOU accosted the TSA agents? Glad you have the audio, Babe!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.prisonplanet.com/dhs-source-tsa-infuriated-with-coverage-of-nationwide-backlash.html
John you are a hero, I have been saying it for days now. You are a hero and we thank you. Our government is out of control and you have stood up to John Heinrich Pistole and Janet goebbels napolitano. If they fine you 11,000 we will raise that for you in a couple days.
ReplyDeleteFlying is a privilege and not a right. Unless you have been hiding under a rock you know that there are security measures that we all have to undergo at the airport.
ReplyDeleteI don't like them. I don't enjoy it or appreciate being patted down but for the time being this is the system that we have in place.
It is disingenuous to say that every attempted terrorist attack has been thwarted by passengers. The ones that we know about have been indeed stopped like that.
But there might be others that we haven't heard of. There might be times where the TSA has been effective.
Look, to reiterate I think that we could do a much better job-- but intentionally provoking a scene at the airport is not a way to affect change.
Write your congressmen. Call your senators and demand that they work on our behalf to improve the system.
Sorry, but I don't call you a hero. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you meant well, but your behavior was out of line.
Your behavior was NOT out of line -- I have written letters to my representatives and senators and to the TSA. I have encouraged friends to do the same. It gets worse and worse. Civil disobediance is the ONLY way to change our government's behavior. Everyone should do it.
ReplyDeleteI am a 55 year old midwestern woman who has taken the hassel and the intimidation by TSAs (cop wannabes) for years. I now never fly unless I absolutely must, I avoid airports with full body scanners, and I leave copies of stories like these in every airport I go through. I hope others will too. Only pushback will stop the grievious loss of individual rights we have given away lest we be accused of being "unpatriotic."
ReplyDeleteNow we know what fascism feels like. Let's get together and stop it.
If you want to shock more I have a suggestion for you.
ReplyDeleteOffer to strip naked for them.
"I dont want you touching my junk, but I have no problem being naked for you to inspect me."
See how they go with that...
Offer to do so immediately for them, in public.
In your prudish country this should cause the most offence to the most people and hopefully make a point. And it probably the safest and healthiest option too.
Oz.
You are a Jerk. Don't fly.
ReplyDeleteI'm appalled at how many people are stupid enough to think that contracting for an airline ticket negates the 4th amendment. This sadly goes for my golf buddies too. One friend said you should be shot and another (not a friend but apparently a very Christian local "paramilitary" law enforcer) thinks you're an attention seeking baby. I questioned her directly about her knowledge of that pesky amendment but refrained from asking her about the cognitive dissonance with regard to her faith and employment. Oh well...
ReplyDeleteOn the lighter side, the shirt I designed to travel in has arrived... It says, "Ignored at home... please feel me up." The text sits over a pic of the 4th.
Please stop using the word "junk" in your postings. It is worse, not better, than the alternative.
ReplyDeleteWhat is wrong with using dogs to sniff out guns, explosives, knives, etc.? A dog can be trained to detect any kind of smell with almost 100% accuracy. And for probably the price of 1 scanner, you could probably get 10-20 dogs with handlers working every corner of an airport. A lot less invasive and a lot more accurate. And I think I would feel a lot safer with security dogs roaming the airport than the power-hungry TSA agents!
ReplyDeleteWhatever moron asked you about a terrorist sneaking on a plane with "devices" is an idiot, and you need not explain yourself to someone of obviously low intellect. Only dumb asses with no intelligence pull the "what if a terrorist" card. Please.
ReplyDeleteImagine the day, when the TSA agents are subjected to sexual assault from a prison cell. TSA agents reading this, you better believe this is real, because when you break the law, you go to jail chumps!
ReplyDeleteLets be clear about something: the way the state enforces security measures has a lot to do with making a statement. Israel has been brought up a lot and is a great example. When Israel deals with Palestinine concerns we see horrendous results at times, yet at an airport a different statement is made... same level of security, different statement.
ReplyDeleteIn accordance with this statement by our government why has it been necessary to create more and more invasive and demeaning procedures to harass travelors? If I was a terrorist I would simply keep "plants" getting caught until every passenger was bent over a rail before entering a plane... I mean that is what people like the shoe bomber have been able to do right?
This is a dangerous slippery slope and the last concern is the security of people. the real concern is how much can people stand?? How much will they tolerate?
The truth is any idiot can carry ceramic or plastic weapons on a flight. Professional terrorists will take any weapon they want on a plane, no matter the pat down enforced and security people know this.
Thank you for sharing your experience. My little groping encounter with the TSA happened about a week before yours. The experience was awkward, weird and unsettling, but having a pretty high tolerance for embarrassing situations helped. My ego more or less intact, I was prepared to suck it up and let it go.
ReplyDeleteBut then I read what you and a few other travelers went through and thought better of it. These experiences MUST be shared or nothing will change.
Here is my story.
http://veniceforchange.blogspot.com/2010/11/was-i-molested-by-tsa-will-you-be.html
I flew out of San Diego this morning and was given a full body pat-down prior to my flight. I didn't find it invasive in the sense that I felt sexually assualted as many people are describing. Overall it wasn't a negative experience but I didn't like being singled out of a group of people and not understanding what I had done to be singled out or knowing what was about to happen to me.
ReplyDeleteThe gentleman who took my boarding pass and ID asked me to wait while other people were allowed to continue onward. Soon another gentleman asked me to follow him to the front of the line of people who were putting their items in the bins and preparing to walk through. I felt that he treated me respectfully and he helped me put my items in bins although I was confused about exactly what was happening but I just followed his directions.
After he collected my items, he escorted me to another area. There were several people there that were being screened. A woman explained that the gentleman who escorted me there would be looking through my bag and that she would be giving me a pat-down. I explained that I'd never received a pat-down before. She simply explained the procedures and how I needed to position myself. The pat-down was relatively quick and it didn't make me feel like I was being assualted or anything. Most of the time she was touching me with the back of her hands which she informed me of before she even started.
She started with the collar of my shirt and her hands went quickly down my back. After that, she checked the waist of my pants by just using two fingers to move at the very top of the waist of the pants from the one side to the other followed by a pat down of my legs during which her hands never touched by genitals. She checked the waist of my pants when she was in front of me and she used the back of her hands quickly check near my chest. She was professional about it and respectful to me.
I appreciate that the people screening me were not acting intimidating or crude as I was taken by surprise by the turn of events. Overall I felt they were kind to me and I think that there is a lot to be said for treating them with respect and maturity as well.
I am a 75 year old Korea-Vietnam, Over ionized with radiation from Operation Plumbbob WMD as they are now called, also embedded under various area of my tough hide some functional replacement body parts metal of course the trigger the walk through scanner and the wand thinge followed by the pat down. I have ties with Las Vegas I make the journey from the South East edge of where the first shot of the Civil War was fired. I personally like to mess with TSA. I made a trip 04/2010 the person checking was a trainee with a supervisor watching, did an overly thorough job ant the supervisor gave him the thumbs up. I looked the trainee in the and told him he missed my Iron Balls, We went to the waiting area and my wife returned to TSA and gave them the butane lighter that was missed. We are planning a Holiday gambling trip. With the close personal massage procedure would it be fair to warn the agent that there is a weapon in the groin area there is a weapon when properly massaged it will explode and shoot white gooey stuff all over you. Would that be a problem??
ReplyDeleteTo the guys that keep saying Muslims are the only one's who have ever attacked the US with terrorism, you are mistaken. Just saying it over and over doesn't make it true. Oklahoma City? Atlanta bombings? The guy that crashed his Cessna into the IRS building? Not a Muslim in the mix.
ReplyDeleteThe TSA logic is faulty, as follows: TSA says weapons and devices are the danger, so they must search everything and every body for weapons and devices. The approach of questioning people and judging their reactions recognizes that PEOPLE are the danger, whatever they have to work with.
ReplyDeleteConsider how many of our movies and "heroic tales" involve someone empty-handed or under-equipped finding a way to win; Dirty Harry out of bullets, McGyver improvising anything. Consider the military training on "improvised" weapons. Consider the number of styles of unarmed combat in cultures around the world.
OTOH: Consider how many people walked on planes with incendiary devices (cigarette lighters) for years without a problem. Consider how many pocket knives and tools were carried on for years without a problem.
Objects are not dangerous. People with bad intent are dangerous, and they will be dangerous with any tool they can find. TSA is looking from the wrong angle.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI've heard that Israel's airport security is top flight (pardon the pun) and does not involve these scanners or invasive searches at all. In fact it involves using questioning techniques similar to what you mentioned at the border.
Thats because they actually use PROFILING.
Instead of the doormat technique we use.
How to curb terrorism and help the U.S. economy? Do let them in to begin with.
Great job at the airport. I am sure a lot of people were wishing that they had acted the same way. But you got there first or at least first with a recording. I am from Canada and I only wish someone would do the same thing here regarding the new scanners. I had no idea about the invasive body searches. God almighty.
ReplyDeleteYour story is getting a lot of attention up here. Below is a link to a story in the National Post.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/11/17/kevin-libin-will-you-let-them-touch-your-junk/
Whatever screening procedure they put in place, the terrorists will discover a means to defeat it. And if the airliners are too difficult to penetrate, they will move to trains or bridges that go largely unprotected.
The Government's method is that everyone is a criminal regardless of station in life. A child of 13, an 80 year old veteran, a person who flies daily; it does not matter to them. How ridiculous! The Government will declare that all this is absolutely necessary because one victory is all that it takes. Well, the loss of one person to murder is a tragedy, but I do not see police all over the streets.
US citizens do not need a passport to enter Canada. But they must have one in order to re-enter the United States. For a US citizen, things are getting pretty shocking.
Your spark is a great beginning to halt the spread of this senseless intrusion. There are far better ways.
Regards,
Gary Marshall
John,
ReplyDeleteYou weren't thinking when you wrote this:
(I should add that I would not oppose an airline that wanted to board planes with zero security. I don't think they would get much business, but it is within their right to do so.)
A hijacked plane can be turned into a missile. The pieces of an exploding plane pose a danger to those on the ground. That's why security isn't at the discretion of the airlines.
I think it's worth pointing out to the military people commenting here that if we lose our constitutional rights at home, then the blood they've spilled in foreign lands is a tragic waste.
ReplyDeleteThe clear lesson of 9/11 and subsequent attempts to attack people on aircraft, is that submission and docility is a losing strategy. We had decades of being told "just do what the bad man says and everything will be OK", and that turned out to be wrong. When I get on a plane, I want to know that many of my fellow passengers are the kind of people who WILL NOT just sit down, shut up, and obey.
Hey John:
ReplyDeleteYou may not be a hero, but you are brave. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for what is right. What's more, you were polite and behaved in a completely sane and dignified manner. There is NO WAY you deserve to be fined. I really hope you got a good lawyer who has your gumption and backbone. As naive as it sounds, I really never thought things would get this bad in America. Thank you for exposing the truth. It could happen to anyone- and it is.
@ Jotman
ReplyDeleteSo is a gas truck, many things can be construed a weapon.
@ People still mentioning "when" you enacted the recording. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!
ReplyDeleteI am a serviceman as well. While I do disagree with some of the things you say in this blog (the terrorists struck first so them "retaliating" against us is actually escalation, not retaliation) I do feel that the TSA is threatening the very things that I am willing to put my life on the line to defend. This bothers me and makes me feel like the sacrifice I am making as a soldier is being nullified by Napolitano and Pistole.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I would like to say that it was quite relieving to hear Pistole say (in the Senate hearing today) that it is unlikely that any actions will be taken against you. That should restore at least some faith in the system, though not much.
Ron Paul - Enough is Enough
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N5adYM7Kw
Ron Paul Traveler Dignity Act
http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1796&Itemid=60
I love the way people use the word "terrorist". It's as if it is something new and has only threatened the world since September 11th.
ReplyDeleteI watch in amazement as a large proportion of Americans are willing to sacrifice their rights and freedoms out of fear of this elusive group of people planning sophisticated attacks from their caves on the borders of Afghanistan and Pakistan!
I grew up in England during the IRA's heavy bombing campaign (funded in large part with American money) in London and can distinctly remember thinking that whenever I went to London there might be a bombing. It wasn't fear, but rather the thought of "I hope they don't bomb today." It never stopped us living and certainly didn't encourage the majority of us to start giving up rights.
Our reaction to the London bombings in 2005 followed a similar path, with even the government's ID Card scheme coming under heavy criticism despite their initial attempts to link it to "our safety". It's not that we don't care about those lost and we aren't bothered by the threat, but we're not going to live our lives in fear.
Sure the UK government are trying to impose the same "population control measures" that US government has imposed on you, the difference is that we largely put up a fight for our rights whereas in the US you hand it to your politicians on a silver platter.
People frequently cite the case of the "underwear bomber" and the "shoe bomber" as justification for this kind of foolishness, but the fail to realise that neither of the "bombs" in question would have been detected. The underwear bomb because it was essentially a dry powder (without a detonator) concealed in an article of clothing and it would have been invisible to the scanner (the density of the water in your skin is what reflects the rays) and the shoe bomb because it was encased in a dense material (the sole of the shoe) and would have appeated to the scanner (whether on or off the foot) as normal shoe sole construction.
ReplyDeleteSecurity theatre does not make us any more secure. For example, the 9/11 hijackings could have been prevented by the simple mechanism of a robust and functioning lock on the cockpit door and an strict policy of never opening the door in flight -- both pretty low tech....
Praise, John!
ReplyDeleteStand up, Americans. Stop letting them treat us like cattle. We're guilty of nothing. We only want to go for a ride -- a plane is like a bus with wings. We're not x-rayed and groped to ride a bus.
Read the Fourth Amendment to our Constitution. The whole TSA treatment is unConstitutional.
(By the way, for people who don't understand who's doing the Terrorism, you've got a lot to learn. Get started.)
How do we get together and fix this?
http://equalpartyusa.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/secure-flight-and-the-no-fly-farce/
=
For those of you who are ok with this unreasonable search, how do you feel about cavity searches? That is what is coming. John Pistole, the head of TSA, said that at today's hearing at least 3 times. It was called a "100%" screening, a search for things "artfully" concealed, and it is planned to take effect Jan 1, 2013. He also said NOTHING is going to change his current or future policy at TSA.
ReplyDeleteYou can go ahead and get probed, I will not be with you but I will be laughing at you.
I agree with you...you are definitely NOT a hero. I am no expert in rights, but they go something like life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. You do NOT have the right to fly, the right to drive, those are both privileges. If the process of flying doesn't make you happy, pursue another way. You are a white man flying to S.D....hmmmm, I wonder what right-wing home-grown, nazi types exist up there??? Although I appreciate your opinions about the middle east, they are not relevant when we have our own timothy mcvay's in right here in our homeland. No, not a hero, just another lawyer-type with his name in lights, costing us billions and making law enforcement jobs impossible.
ReplyDeleteHi Johnnyedge, stop defending yourself! You did good. You started an important dialogue. Well done! http://www.slate.com/id/2239935/
ReplyDeleteI came across your post and felt the need to comment.
ReplyDeleteAs many know the Israelis are considered to have the best airport security in the world. It is no secret that they do something called racial profiling. Also every single person who goes through security is personally interviewed by a security agent. Everybody's luggage is thoroughly scanned etc.
I am sure many people will complain that racial profiling is a violation of human rights etc. The problem is that you can't object to racial profiling and stand up to "Enhanced" pat downs, or body scanning machines because they are also a violation of rights. The challenge is to find the correct balance between our rights and security, but if we can spend less infringe less on most people's rights while not grossly violating those rights of others we seem to be doing better, only the US won't go there because it "Politically Correct".
As for the soldier who posted. I am Israeli I have served and continue to serve every year in the Israeli military. I have seen buddies killed, and I have been shot at multiple times. I have been forced to kill. It isn't easy, trust me the first time you kill somebody you loose a lot of sleep. But we do it to protect ourselves and our RIGHTS. If we aren't fighting for our RIGHTS then what are we fighting for?
But trust me terrorism will not stop if you role over or play dead either. Whether the US should be in Afghanistan is a valid question but if you pull out it won't end terrorism. Israel was under constant attack since it was created by the UN, now they say if we just go back to the Pre-67 borders there will be peace. But if that is the case why wasn't there peace BEFORE 67?
Israeli security and profile sucks if you are anything other than white.
ReplyDeleteI personally refuse to fly to or through Israel *ever* again after the last business trip when I was held up for over 5 hours & had to buy new tickets (with all the other non-white travellers on my flight to London picked out of a row at the checkin gate) because some teenage "security officer" didn't think my "story" added up & I happen to be the wrong shade of brown for her liking. It would be a shame to see the TSA further degrade the quality of real security by adopting so called "profiling".
I would like to clarify some ocmmments regarding what the Israilis do.
ReplyDeleteIt's not racial profiling. It's finding out who the people are who have professed their intent to blow up the plane. These people are Muslims.
They will ask questions designed to ferret out Muslims. These people are basically autotomic killing machines, and they will ask something like "Mohammed was a thief..agreed?" to suspected Muslims which in no way is a violation of anyone's rights.
Then they will simply not allow these live bombs to board. Or if they do, trust me, they will have everything including their peehole anayzed, screened, and vetted.
Terrorists (Muslims) would like nothing more than to blow up an Israeli airliner. But they absolutely can't. And Israel is in total compliance with our constitunal rights.
We get the strippage of rights and the on-board live bombs.
Their's
"Terrorist" is a political word. It is used to keep people from thinking about cause and effect. When you hear "terrorist," you are supposed to think "monster" or something like that. A monster is just innately evil, no reason for it.
ReplyDeleteOF COURSE, this so-called terrorism is a problem of "foreign policy" — another phrase intended to confuse. Foreign policy means invading, occupying, shooting, bombing, blockading and humiliating Muslims.
And dumb neoconservatives think the MUSLIMS are the violent ones, as if Muslims should be thankful to be killed, despoiled and starved by faux-Christians and Jews. I guess the Old Testament advocates violence, too.
So Americans are told "terrorists hate us for our freedoms." Which freedoms? The freedom to "be secure in secure in [our] persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures"?
Wait, the government took that freedom away, along with the other freedoms supposedly guaranteed by the Constitution.
I guess the government hates us for our freedoms.
So Americans are to be watched, monitored, regimented, scanned, groped and humiliated — all so their government can continue its "foreign policy," which, far from protecting their lives and liberties, is the means by which they are losing both.
— Charles
I am encouraged by your intelligent and measured stand against TSA as well as your responses. I have flown extensively over the last 6 years and statistics have it that I will be called for 'extra screening', which I expect and do not mind. I've had 3 occasions that stand out as exceptionally unpleasant (Reagan National, Colorado Springs and Burbank) and 2 that were remarkable in the positive (both in L.A. at LAX). The unpleasant occasions were due to the insensitivity, ignorance and poor character of the employees and the positive experiences were due to TSAs strength of process and a single employees strength of character. All this is to say that I have no intention of allowing either my children nor I to be subjected to some pervert or ignorant voyeuristic bureaucrat. Hero's usually are those that quietly, simply say, 'enough'.
ReplyDeleteThank you for standing up for your rights -- for ALL of our rights. I agree with all the points you made in this post. And I'm glad your father-in-law is not pissed at you. :-)
ReplyDelete--Michelle
Another instance of the ignorance and cowardice of the policy makers. When John Pistole and Janet Napolitano both agree to subject themselves and their families to daily scans that our pilots are undergoing, then we’ll have something REAL to discuss. Until then, they can blow it out their a**.
ReplyDeleteMr. Tyner,
ReplyDeleteIf the TSA filers their suit, keep the Internets updates. If you have to hire a lawyer and/or pay the fine, setup a chipin or some other way for donations. I'm sure that we on the Internets will pay for everything because you are a hero for standing up to these perverts.
I just filmed this on Monday in Ft. Lauderdale. Fortunately, they did not require me to go through the scanners or the groping experience. I was armed with my recorder if they had.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tu1Hjd19gk
Hat's off to you John. I'm 100% with you on this. I'm ready to end my 17 year 50-state traveling career at the drop of a hat if they force me to be assaulted.
Actually, John, even the interrogation that you mention (your Niagara Falls trip) is unConstitutional. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." You have the 5th Amendment right always.
ReplyDeleteRemember that we live (or used to live anyway) in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. Under that mantra, there is absolutely ZERO reason to comply with any of these screenings. Just plead your 4th and 5th Amendment rights, let the TSA (or whichever jackbooted thugs you are dealing with as this, no doubt, expands to other areas outside of air travel) deny you the right to travel, and then sue the pants off of them. It might take years, it may have to go all the way to the Supreme Court, but if you still have faith in this country at all, have faith that the courts will keep them in check. (If the courts don't, then this is no longer the nation known as THESE United States, and other options must be asserted, such as secession or expatriation.)
I will take an airplane with "zero" security any day. It's what we had before 9/11 and in the decades of air travel before that, how often did terrorism on a plane happen? Practically never. How often does terrorism happen in air travel now? Every single time a sovereign citizen goes through the TSA's checkpoints.
If we leave it up to the airlines to decide how much security is truly necessary, then I'll take the one with the least-- thanks!
Oh, and for the people thinking a firearm discharge inside the cabin of an aircraft at altitude will cause an explosive decompression, I suggest they check out the MythBusters episode where that was simulated and found to be a myth. Hence, pilots, armed LEOs, and even citizens on a plane is not a problem.
The single greatest improvement to airline security since 9/11 has been the reinforced, locking doors between the cockpit and cabin on aircraft. Everything else is "security theater".
ReplyDeleteWell said, John. It is very refreshing and encouraging to read your very well thought out and reasoned post. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteA metaphor that comes to mind is one that I mention to people who say they rather put innocent people in jail than let guilty ones go free. To them I say: Do you realize that when innocent persons go to jail for a crime they didn't commit, the ones who committed the crime are very likely free out there? The only difference is that you feel good about it; but you are not any safer.
Harassing so many travelers does not improve our security, just our perception of it. Look around the world to the countries that are not targeted for terrorist attacks and look at their security measures as well as their behavior towards others in the world. We could learn something from them.
Thank you for the example you set for the rest of us!
@Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete> Hi Johnnyedge, stop defending yourself!
> You did good.
> You started an important dialogue.
> Well done!
> http://www.slate.com/id/2239935/
Funny - that article is almost a year old.
Let's see where we end up by next Christmas.
Last spring I went through an airport in Il. My 5 year old daughter was with me. The TSA peronel behind the scanner actually manhandeled her. She and I both ended up on the floor due to this mans actions, he slapped her hand when my sleepy daughter(we had just gotten off a 19 or 20 hour flight) hard enough to leave a red mark for the rest of the day when she tried to take her bunny from the bin AFTER it had gone through the xray device. To top it off we were actually pushed back from the bin with the bunny with both hands causing us to fall, yes it was that hard, to the floor. My daughter began to cry out of pain and fear (as a mother this broke my heart) and I was so shocked at first I couldn't say a word. When I found my voice and began to ask why this was happening I was accused of trying to impeed the dutys of a TSA agent and then, after a 45 min event that I can only call harrasment, I almost missed my connection. This all really was too much. I respect you for standing up for what you believe in and I hope that the TSA will mend its ways...
ReplyDeleteAs a frequent flyier i have to agree with the fact that things have gotten completely out of hand regarding these searchs. We have taught all our children not to be touched by strangers in any way and yet as in the last few days TSA has regognized they went to far, bearly! You will also notice that as far as process goes TSA does not have any. They argue with each other regarding who should take responsibility if you are flagged for a "special search". Having been through many airports it is clear we have people of questionable motives running the scanners. Does TSA require that the person viewing the images NOT take a cell phone/camera etc into the viewing room? Should they treat that person the same way as they do to us, the person shoiuld be searched for camera's, any other material that they take from this area, also they should under go a search of there personel computers at home to see if they have images that would indicate they would abuse the system. Clearly if this was in place they too would be howling about civil liberties, but not when it comes to taking ours away. Just watch and see how young women are profiled thru the scanners via the metal detectors...
ReplyDeleteLook at a local news blurb:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mercurynews.com/san-mateo-county/ci_16641946?source=most_viewed
John has accomplished what few others have done, brought attention to the indignities suffered by American citizens by their own countrymen. He has effectively used the electronic medium like many other activists.
Thanks to John people all over the country are engaging in debate, and the TSA knows the awakened American public are not happy about this.
I'll quote IOZ on what to do, for those who can:
ReplyDeleteNational Opt-Out day ain't gonna do shit. Obviously the proper tactic here is to submit to the invasive search and then litigate. Litigate the fuck out of that shit. Accuse the people who touched you of rape, molestation, assault, etc. etc. Sue them in civil court. Get together a thousand fondled men and women and go for a class action. Demand a bajillion googleplex dollars for emotional harm. Tie up every TSA official in depositions and whatnot for the next thirty years. Require ACT clearances and their by-state equivalents of every screener. Demand citizen review boards. Keep shitting in the same toilet until the goddamn pipes explode.
Can we get some lawyers on this? THANKS!
"DAMN-LIBERALS!" SINGLED OUT AGAIN IN CONSERVATIVE SAN DIEGO:
ReplyDeleteYeah Tyner, your-obviously not blindly-following TSA's unreasonable demands was a red flag to TSA agents - "Hey Joe, got a Damn Liberal, get a supervisor, this guy must be a terrorist! Let's mess with him more!"
However, Im so not-surprised this happened in San Diego. San Diego, separated over 100 miles from civilized regions such as L.A., think they are their own-damn country. Their unchanged conservative history dates back to the Post-Civil-War Era when they refused the Federal Government's ORDER to free slaves and Feds had to send in troops to "force" San Diego to obey the U.S. Constitution! In the late 1990's several SD Police Officer's opened fire on a homeless man charging them with a tree branch, and the City cited essentially that, no that wasn't manslaughter, the "officer's needed better training." Yeah, like taught the U.S. Constitution! You can read story after story like this about San Diego. Stay out of there!
P.S. Ben Franklin was a man far-ahead of our time!
(a copy of this comment is also awaiting approval at the LA Times website)
To be clear to everybody who has problems with racial profiling and it being unconstitutional. From what John writes, I believe John is also opposed to racial profiling. But, I think he supports a type of non-racial profiling, which his US/Canada border crossing story demonstrates and as does the airport in Israel exemplify.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate what you have done, and agree with everything about your rationale EXCEPT:
ReplyDelete"...if someone is lying, their story usually begins to fall apart around the third question or so. We should be employing a screening more along these lines."
A border checkpoint is not the equal of an airport within our borders, and questioning someone there about their reasons for travel is as bad as patting them down. But, both are totally unacceptable if one piece of cargo in hull makes it aboard without any scrutiny, and it does today. There are huge holes in airline security that must be addressed before we strip away basic rights, including security on one's person, as well as one privacy.
If war were to ever come to our shores, you can bet these pathetic sheep in here who adore their government tyrants will be the first to run from danger. They were obviously in a coma during American History class.
ReplyDeletePeople like Mr. Tyner rank up there with the likes of Patrick Henry and John Paul Jones.
“If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” Samuel Adams
John, thank-you for standing up to our increasingly out of control federal government. By taking personal action to defend your—and our—constitutional rights, you are my Patriot of the Week. And you did it in such a polite, firm fashion. Bravo and good luck to you.
ReplyDelete—Moss
"Please stop using the word "junk" in your postings. It is worse, not better, than the alternative."
ReplyDeleteSorry. Stay away from my cock and bollocks. Don't touch my pecker. Hands off the fruit and veg.
Ron Paul is on your side!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qwsdq69AHnw
The momentum is in full swing:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101118/ap_on_re_us/us_airport_security_private_screeners
Politicians have started to take notice. I hope they have a more private and capable work force that will handle airport security with decency and dignity.
Power to the people!!!
After following this story, I think it is important to consider three points. First, it is ridiculous to suggest that those opposed to body scanners/aggressive pat downs are in support of terrorism or have forgotten September 11th. As an American and frequent flyer, I too am opposed to the body scanners and pat downs, but that does not mean that I do not respect our troops or that I support terrorism. I appreciate the TSA agents for protecting travelers and putting up with disgruntled passengers on a daily basis, however, this new security has made flying almost impossible for many.
ReplyDeleteSecond, it is unfair to enforce aggressive pat downs if the scanners are not an alternative option. Not all airports have body scanners, but passengers are still forced to endure an aggressive pat down. TSA would have avoided some backlash by waiting until all airports could offer both a scanner and a pat down before implementing this new security. As a woman, I am uncomfortable with the thought of a stranger viewing my body in the manner the scanners show, however I would never prefer the invasive pat down.
Third, I understand the argument that terrorists may choose to plant an explosive device on a child, however children should not be subjected to this invasive security. I think 12 is still far too young to be scanned or aggressively patted down. The TSA could have also reduced scrutiny by increasing the age to 18. It is completely inappropriate and confusing for children to subject them to this treatment. It is going to take some rationalizing for me to accept this new security, I can’t imagine asking a child to accept being touched like this.
While I respect the intent of the TSA and National Security, the implementation of the new security is flawed. John’s experience, and the experience of many others, demonstrates a lack of planning and training of officials. This security should have been implemented long before the busiest time of the year to allow officials and travelers to become familiar with the process. Regardless of our individual opinions, with pending lawsuits, organized opt-out day, pilot union threats, viral videos, and state officials speaking out, the TSA is in for a bumpy ride this holiday season.
Well done. Well said.
ReplyDeleteWhile most will shrug off your alternative logic (“I should add that I would not oppose an airline that wanted to board planes with zero security. I don't think they would get much business, but it is within their right to do so.”), I see un-pursued good sense there. John (of TSA) Pistole's quote on national TV opens the same can of worms in the wrong direction: Everyone would like to have the best security possible, right?" No, not right, that would doubtlessly exist in the most intrusive of police states. Which would make the U.S. look like Big Israel, but we’re not a tiny theocratic state in a permanent state of war, right?
ReplyDeleteOK, I admit it, I didn’t read all the posts in detail, but only a couple, like the I-was-free epitaph guy, have addressed that too much secure-ness is just another form of terror, and we’ve had too much of both.
Most people would like to have the best compromise between personal freedom and limitation of risk. Many would be quite happy with what Europe has lived with for 40 years in the modern era: take moderate precautions, and beyond that your courage is the cost of your freedom. If one in 100,000 flights could go down, do you accept those odds in order not to live as a scared wabbit?
I don’t advocate irresponsibility, but the assumed triteness of “that means the terrorists have won” shouldn’t hamper genuine deductive reason. How would you describe a win for those who planned the WTC attacks or the Kenyan embassy bombing, or whatever? Color-coded fear levels? Four trillion dollars funneled to welcoming corporate hands in the security-industrial complex? No more security than you had before, which is an automatic res ipsa?
It’s a shame that I’ve come to the same conclusion on air travel as many Americans: just don’t go anywhere that you can’t get to in a car or a train.
"I'll tell you one thing that WILL happen. We service members will fight a war again, just for you, because you complained of security being unnecessary.... The terrorists are waiting for us to put our guard down again. Think about that for a bit....."
ReplyDeleteYou don't fight a war for me. I never asked you to go to war. Our armed services are nothing but a bunch of welfare babies living off the taxpayers buck (I'm all about welfare, I think its great, just know where you stand). My liberties in my town in middle America were never at stake. Well, not until I attempt board an airplane, and then they are given up to the very government that I sought to protect me. Who is the terrorist in these situations? Is it some guy in a cave on the other side of the world who plays no role in my daily life? Or, is it the under-educated under-payed high school graduate at the back scatter machine that is attempting to touch my genitals or give me cancer. I'm gonna go with the one I have the most contact with. The one that affects me directly.
I have been through security where 100% of passengers are sent along without any excess searching or groping during my time in line, within the next 48 hours, no bombs no murders, no plane crashes resulted. I have also been through security where all persons are subjected to every check imaginable and same as before, no incidents occurred. Airport security is joke, and the punch line is this, we wake up tomorrow with collars around our necks, tethered to the government, submissive, and complacent.
Also, you're a bitch, whoever you are.
Tyner is correct that there are other and better methods for screening.
ReplyDeleteNo country faces a broader more persistent terrorist threat than Israel. Look at their airport screening system: metal detector and face-to-face interview for each passenger. Period.
How many terrorists have successfully boarded an Israeli airliner in the last 30 years? Answer - none.
Israelie screening interviewers are educated, well compensated, and few in number compared the the army of uneducated "TSA Agents" facing us at US airports. Israeli passengers keep their shoes on.
For the service members here who argue that we need TSA to prevent wars, that is absurd. No offense, but what has the US Military accomplished in Iraq or Afghanistan?
Answer - early on, the military tossed Iraq out of Kuwait. We didn't hear much about rules of engagement back then, just effective aggressive military action. Since then, the miltary has accomplished nothing under the blanket of "rules of engagement". The very idea of occupying a land and subduing a combative element in a soft and gentle manner is absurd. Armies do one thing well: destroy. Ask them to do anything else, they flounder, die, and fail. Our govt should be ashamed at what it has asked our army to do. But it's not, because our govt is too uneducated to know any better. So what's my point to the servicemen who argue that we need TSA so they can stay home from the sandbox? My point is that their argument is broken at the outset. They are not members of an effective, decisive force defending our nation and vanquishing our foes. Rather, they chose to join the US Military in it's present form under its present leadership, and therefore they flounder under bad leadership (bad govt). Their decison to join is not my problem.
My problem is the bad govt. I want rid of it in all it's forms, including it's invasive and ineffective screening processes imposed on me at airports.
If you think that this type of screening is justified due to terrorism, then you are exactly the kind of person who throughout human history has slowly allowed tyrannical govt to invade and take over your life to the point that you cry "victim". You know nothing of history, and are therefore uneducated in the extreme.
The answer to terrorism is death. If a strong society is attacked, it responds by either killing it's attackers, or dying in the attempt to do so. War is hell. If you are forced into it, try to get it over with as quickly as possible. You better know that while it is being conducted, many many people die.
The answer to misguided belief systems such as Muslim Extremism has always been and will always be to kill them incessantly & indiscriminantly until they decide to change their belief systems. Until you do that, they simply laugh at you and continue to attack.
I don't want screening. I want my govt to kill extremists in very large numbers until they quit and go home. I want to fly like its 1950.
@Jim Withers
ReplyDeleteI though John had big ones, but man, to make a comment that the service men/women of this country are welfare babies - wow! That does take testicles of brass.
But, since you've said it, I agree 100%!!
I know this is off topic - well sort of - but I've been thinking the same thing. Any uniform that is doing anything other than protecting our PHYSICAL boarders is nothing more than a person/family living off the taxpayer's wallet.
If our service personnel were DRAFTED, ok. But this is a 100% PAID job. With HUGE benefits that no private-sector employer could ever afford to pay ($50k sign up bonus, GI bill, VA bennies, etc).
You hit the nail on the head, and I wish more taxpayers had the nerve to say it with you.
Congratulations to being inaccurately CG rendered in Chinese news.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBL3ux1o0tM (begins 0:33)
How awesome is it that the super invasive "Make you naked machine" is called Rapiscan... Really.
ReplyDeleteI know they meant Rapid... but a little close to an overly aggressive and illegal thing called Rape.
Bad form "Rapiscan" marketing team.
There appear to be two concepts that commentary above indicates a total lack of knowledge.
ReplyDeleteFirst, Muslims. A definition of a Muslim has absolutely nothing to do with religion vis-a-vis airline security. It is a professed behaviorial intent. Spouting the Koran's passages about killing all infidels, etc will get one summarily arrested anywhere inside an airport. A Muslim by existing inside one is summarily guilty. Again, the Israilis DO NOT PROFILE. They are behavior analysts which is in essence identifying Muslims.
Seond, rights. Rights are that which are conferred by birth. They are implicit in the American form of government, but since the Founding Fathers didn't trust ANY government, the Constitution was amended to explicitly list them. But they don't RELY on the Constitution. This is what what the brainless, gutless worms nawing at the tree of freedom don't have a clue in understanding...there will always be someone like this blogger making a stand.
John,
ReplyDeleteI caught your video, read your post, and I am a vet too. I gave up my rights to fight for my country but I don't think the screening you refused would have saved anyone not even a soldier in battle.
Last year on my way back from a trip I landed in New Zealand where I was physically searched twice (once through security check point and again at the gate) and stopped for a chemical test. The other person at the chemical test station was a grandmother. I personally saw several suspicious characters walk by and laugh at the sight. They must have enjoyed our being screened so they weren't sterio-typed. When I got on my flight I didn't feel safe. I think if anyone was paying attention to the horrible search procedures and those that are being randomly selected they wouldn't feel safe either.
Keep up the good fight, it's what being a good American is all about.
Dear Sir,
ReplyDeleteI admire that stand and actions that you have taken. If the United States would remove their noses from the affairs of other countries, we could all live in a safer world.
Here in Canada and I venture to think that this also applies in the United States, ground personnel that service aircraft are not screened at all.
We are not safer by having out freedoms and rights removed. The citizens of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia had no freedom or rights, were they more secure?
Bravo sir.
The Mad Magyar
I object only to your second to last paragraph: You are a hero. You are actually standing up for A) what you believe in and B) your rights as an America. If we don't fight for our freedoms here at home (like you've done), then what is the point of the troops fighting for it over there? (Not that I think there has been a battle in the past 20-50 years that has had anything to do with OUR freedom.) Bravo.
ReplyDeleteI made an animated video about pat-downs:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7H4QU2jQ4
Please let us know if the TSA comes after you.
ReplyDeleteYou should be starting a legal fund ASAP !!!
IF you need a place to "stay", let me know.
You just became my personal hero.
ReplyDeleteI am outraged by the attention you are getting. You may be a nice person, but the mere fact that you thought an airport security measure was actually an effort for some one to "touch your junk" is egotistical and a shallow cry for attention. Our nations security is critical, and any measure or effort taken to ensure our safety as passengers flying and as citizens are necessary and need to be enforced. How will you feel if the scanners are stopped and some idiot decides to walk through the metal detector with a device which ultimately takes hundreds of lives???? Next time you pat yourself on the back for this insane production, stop and try to think what is most important, Our Safety...let's hope and pray that your little production does not take away a screening program that could actually be foolproof for a change. Your thought of someone wanting to feel you up being anywhere near as important as safety..is disturbing and concerning. is it possible you staged this for attention???? Please wake up...we are talking about loss of human life here......or saving human life. How hard would it have been to just walk the scanner and be done. I do not want to be hurtful and apologize if I am, it is just an outrage to see attention being given to this when in truth we need to focus on protecting ourselves from those who's ultimate goal is our destruction.
ReplyDelete"Just doing their jobs" is no excuse, not since Nuremberg.
ReplyDeleteTo all who posted in support...this is not about freedom people. Come on......It is about protection. With individuals lurking in this world that have the potential to create a disaster such as 9/11, why do you not want severe security measures? It happened once it can happen again. How hard is it to just walk through a scanner. Or be searched...if that will ultimately ensure protection of your life? Or for others. If you do not approve, drive, take a bus or train, but don't whine about freedom rights...nothing was taken away from you here. It is your choice in picking your transportation, if you choose to fly, then you choose security measures and safety. It's simple. if you do not like it, get there another way, but don't fight to take away a measure that was developed to protect us and keep us safe.
ReplyDeleteThat Nuremberg comment is sick...this issue is nothing compaired to the magnitude of those war crimes.....the airport workers are actually just doing their job...give em a break....you do not actually believe they picked this guy out of hundreds and decided to get a cheap thrill. Do you????? do hope we will all wake up with more important issues to focus on....happy ones....think of something to be grateful for and try to give back a little...it is almost Thanksgiving. Enjoy!
ReplyDelete>>>May I ask: So if next time a terrorist successfully hides "devices" to kill Americans on a plane, because you seem to think TSA or airport security is over-excessive...What will you say?
ReplyDelete2 words: WTC 7; OPERATION NORTHWOODS; OPERATION GLADIO; Inside Job; False Flag; USS Liberty
The 1st terrorists arrested on 9/11/2001 were Israeli Mossad jews dressed as Arabs, dancing with glee as WTC exploded with 1,000s of prewired bombs of Super Thermite.
>>>I'll tell you one thing that WILL happen. We service members will fight a war again, just for you, because you complained of security being unnecessary.... The terrorists are waiting for us to put our guard down again. Think about that for a bit.....
On 9/11/2001 the US military was ordered to stand down by Dick Tater and Don Rummy Knight of the British Empire, with NORAD under command of a Canadian general of the British Empire, as Bush Baby read The Pet Goat alibi. Thank God F16 Top Gun pilot Col Rick Gibney and his commanding general ignored those treasonous illegal orders, and shot down United Airlines Flight 93, before it could pull a Reichstag Fire by remote control.
My job in USAF was nuking active US military bases in highly populated areas, by explosive controlled demolition of a dozen nuclear bombs, under command of NATO generals. This is a common job for 100s of US soldiers every day. I also did my part to massacre 40 women and children as they slept in their beds in Libya, during Operation El Dorado Canyon, after an Israeli Mossad covert radio broadcast from Libya "justified" attack on the Arab patsies. Thank George Bush Sr Knight of the British Empire for US special forces rescuing President Qadaffi just minutes before the US and RAF bombers slaughtered his daughter, "to prevent an international incident" in case visiting dignitaries were killed in the sneak attack, according to Dr Stoney Merriman, chief of public affairs for the US Marine Corps at the Pentagon.
>>>How are you a "Hero". Tell ME that. Honestly brother, a person who self-consciously video records prior going through security had the attention to overembellish the true intent for TSA Security
Every lawyer will tell you to always record every conversation with every cop, even a rentacop. TSA employs 80% non-US citizens as airport screeners BTW.
>>>"Never Forget" (looks like you all forgot)
Here's a video to jock your memory.
My familly's law firm is on the trillion-dollar Dream Team repping the victims of 9/11. After Dictator Bush and Al Qeada Dictator Hussein Obama Soetoro killed that lawsuit against the official perps of 9/11 -- who were dining with Bush Sr in DC on 9/11/2001 -- the lawyers now get their orders personally in Israel, because Israel says Iran attacked USA on 9/11...
Dear sir,
ReplyDeleteI am shocked to see Americans subjected to such crude violations. I applaud you for refusing to behave as cattle. That said... We members of the US Armed Forces follow orders. We do not ask why. It is upon you and your elected officials to ensure that our lives are risked for a worthy cause. Please don't insult individual service members by questioning the value of the conflicts in which they are faced with: The risk of death, maiming or serious (and painful) physical injury...Experiencing the suffering of others...quiet time on a secure base disrupted by projectiles launched from outside the base...the occasionally ridiculous treatment they receive from superiors...the gradual destruction of their families as they spend one more day away from home.
They don't have a choice. They volunteered to accept those conditions because they A. Care about civilization and want to salvage it B. Needed a job and they were hiring (sucks to be that guy) or C. Are crazy
Your statement that you wouldn't be willing to risk your own safety to fight for this country is honestly a little disturbing. You fought for your own rights at that airport because you grew up an American. Well guess what, Americans have had to fight for those rights repeatedly. Maybe your masked criticism is correct, and our hunting down terrorists in Afghanistan isn't making Americans any safer, but it's the best we can do. We don't pick where we go to war. If we could, most of us would agree that preserving the USA starts right here at home...
To John and anyone who doesn't understand why the TSA is in the wrong, we are employing a system that doesn't protect against the very thing that started it all.
ReplyDeleteWe got those body scanners in response to the underwear bomber's attempt - but the truth is that they don't detect what he was carrying (plastic explosives). So how is it making us any safer than going through a metal detector that doesn't require us to be nude and doesn't produce child pornography?
The full-body-pat-down is incredibly uncalled for as well. Doing this will only encourage terrorists to start hiding items in body cavities.
I witnessed the harsh truth behind TSA procedures back in 2002. I was traveling to London for my 18th birthday and I was "randomly" selected for a post security check-point screening at the gate of my plane. (I was a cute blonde teenager in a Care Bear t-shirt and Birkenstock sandals - to give you a picture) They let two Middle Eastern men - dressed in those traditional loose fitting clothes - pass through the gate without so much as a second glance. They next called for an 80-year-old grandmother in a wheelchair to be "randomly" searched. I should mention that the TSA agents were both black gentlemen and seemed to be fixated on searching Caucasian women only. They seemed to be amused by it, in fact.
Then, on my way back into Washington Dulles, I accidentally left a few pence in my pocket in the metal detector. This gave a butch woman TSA agent the "right" to wand me and upon it picking up the underwire in my bra, she proceeded to feel me up as if she was squeezing fruit at the grocery store for ripeness. I said, "Ma'am, I'm pretty sure you know that 99.9% of women wear underwire bras. I took the change out my pocket... that's all it is." She finally let me go - but yes, I felt violated.
Both of these encounters made me realize that the TSA doesn't have a clue and is too afraid of "offending" Muslims to profile them. So decent Americans are subjected to a waste of their time, dignity, tax dollars, and rights. Watching children get groped is just the final smack in our faces.
Israel, on the other hand, is not afraid to profile anyone and thus has one of the best, if not *the* best, safety records in the world. They look for suspicious behavior and actually USE blacklists and background checks.
John just did what the rest of us are afraid to do: Stand up and question a flawed system that is so futile, it's pathetic. He should not be fined for it either, since he pays taxes like we all do for these idiots to harass us in the first place. When we let our government do inane blanket policies like this - instead of profiling the few, we let the terrorists win. Think about that.
>>>WTC 7; OPERATION NORTHWOODS; OPERATION GLADIO; Inside Job; False Flag; USS Liberty
ReplyDeleteThe official version of 9/11 is a wacko conspiracy theory if ever one was. It reads like a Tom Clancy plot, just a lot less plausible. A terrorist's passport survived that day, and a black box didn't!?! The greatest military in history couldn't defend their own headquarters!?! A jetliner's high-speed, nose-down plunge into the loose fill of a reclaimed strip mine can produce a debris field that stretched for miles!?! Et cetera ad nauseam. Pah-leeeeze. Fall for a load like that and pretty soon you'll wind up believing the North Vietnamese shot first at the Tonkin Gulf incident, Bush won the 2000 election, Reagan did not trade arms for hostages, Oswald acted alone, Pearl Harbor was a surprise, and the Spanish blew up the Maine.
There's a reason that public schools teach standardized test taking, but not critical thinking. Our rulers want us dumb. Our ignorance is their strength.
We have only their word that bin Ladin & Co. are no longer in their employ. History has proven repeatedly, and beyond all shadow of doubt, that their word, plus $2, buys one cup of coffee.
Believe is what stupid people do instead of find out the truth for themselves. The truth of 9/11 is the truth of the Reichstag Fire. The USA PATRIOT Act of 2001 is America's version of the Enabling Act of 1933 in same way that the Nuremberg Laws of 1935 were Germany's version of the 1907 Indiana Eugenics Law. Our rulers learn from history, the rest of us not so much. We're on a very slippery slope, people. Where we're headed isn't pretty.
But don't take my word for it. Read history. See for yourselves.
Recently at Denver's airport - the 18 year old daughter of a pilot steps into the body scanner. The father overhears the TSA guy say to the guy manning the viewing booth, "Heads up! I got a cutie for you." I'm sure they're making collections of nude scans of their favorite females. Who doesn't have a phone with camera these days? TSA must be getting applications from all kinds of perverts who haven't been caught yet. There's your chance to grope, see kids naked, you name it - and get paid for it.
ReplyDeleteThis summer, I flew out of Amsterdam. I had my junk grabbed, and not just back-of-the-hand, actually grabbed and squeezed.
I have this theory that terrorists are doing these shoe-and-underpants things not so much for bombing purposes but to mess with us. I'm sure they're laughing their butts off. Speaking of butts, I'm just waiting for a guy with C4 up his butt, then we'll get free proctology at the airport.
While I wouldn't have done what you did (I'm not a US citizen, so I don't have the same rights you do when going through TSA security), I very much am glad you did. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAny similarities below to the TSA? Perhaps they should be called the SS-A. It is a slippery slope indeed. I no longer recognize America when I go to an airport which is every week, and since traveling is part of my job I can't "just stay home".
ReplyDeleteSS
Schutzstaffel
SS insignia
Agency overview
Formed 1925
Dissolved May 8, 1945
The Schutzstaffel (German Protection Squadron), abbreviated SS—or with stylized "Armanen" Sig runes — was a major paramilitary organization under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. Built upon the Nazi ideology, the SS, under Heinrich Himmler's command, was responsible for many of the crimes against humanity during World War II (1939-1945). After 1945 the SS was banned in Germany along with the Nazi Party as a criminal organization.
The SS was formed in 1925 as a personal protection guard unit for Adolf Hitler. Under the leadership of Heinrich Himmler between 1929 and 1945, the SS grew from a small paramilitary formation to one of the largest and most powerful organizations in the Third Reich
Mr. Tyner: Whether you understand why or agree with the following statement is irrelevant: You ARE an American Hero! You ARE a true Patriot! As the American Patriots did over 200 years ago, you have stood on your principles and defied tyranny. For that you will have my eternal respect and undying admiration.
ReplyDeletesimple thing to say:
ReplyDeleteMalo Periculosam Libertatem Quam Quietum Servitium
John,
ReplyDeleteI expected you to be one of the 'faux-libertarian' breed, those who protest for their own rights, but are unconcerned of greater governmental abuses to the general public--yet, even the 'faux-libertarians' partake in some actions which protect everyone's Constitutional rights. However, your blogging prior to the SAN encounter reveal you entered the 'rabbit-hole matrix' of reality long ago.
A poster above states Israeli airports, touted to be the safest in the world, do not use these scanners--the following link includes a report of the Ben Gurion airport security chief advising these scanners are ineffective: http://www.democracynow.org/2010/11/19/national_outcry_over_tsa_body_scanners
Personally, I am still undecided on whether some sort of screening should be initiated instead of the current procedures; a security interview similar in purpose as one used at an immigration checkpoint. I still debate what civil liberty intrusions are permissible for travelling within our own borders. Let's face it though, these radiation machines are going to be found to be dangerous. I feel badly for the personnel operating them, as, if usage continues, in ten years or so some nasty cancers will be determined to be associated with employment in airport security. After all, if one of our nation's gold star hospitals can't be trusted with safe usage of technology, how can our government? See: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/10/cedarssinai-investigated-for-significant-radiation-overdoses-of-more-than-200-patients.html
I have not yet played the videos posted, but I hope they include the agent stating you gave up civil liberties once you purchased your ticket. Astounding. It is not hard to comprehend how staff engage in prison abuses, or the historical complicity of Auschwitz guards. Very few people question the morality, or legality, of what a person in position commands them to perform under the auspices of their job role.
You deserve great commendation for what you have done. Even the uninformed here posting critical, inflammatory statements will benefit from your steps in keeping our government accountable to its citizenry. People like you are helping to awaken us after the near decade of nightmarish coma born by the Cheney/Bush regime due to not protecting us from terrorism. Much like American soldiers dying in foreign lands, patriots like you fight the battle to keep our country by the people and for the people.
I will monitor this blog for any further civil case abuses you face from your stand, and I would hope you might be able to be a clearinghouse to publicize similar governmental threats foisted on other members of the public.
a salute to you,
Revere
Actually, it's the Department of Homeland Security, not the TSA, that has most in common with the SS. We say "Homeland," Germans say "Fatherland," Russians say "Motherland," but it's all the same thing. We're "patriots." They're "nationalists." But it's exactly the same thing. Nationalism is a curse. Patriots are our misfortune.
ReplyDeletePatriotism is what makes the enemy (whoever it happens to be this time around) feel good about killing us. Do you really believe that the Creator really cares whether you're Brazilian, Icelandic or Liberian? Get over it. We are one race, the human race. We live on one planet, earth. We all breath the same air. We all read the same internet.
American exceptionalism is every bit as much a lie as Aryan superiority. Americans have no more right to force our will on Afghans, Arabs or anyone else, than the Nazis had to a right force their will on Europe. Dressing up imperialism in the guise of "liberation" doesn't make it not be imperialism. Sooner or later, all empires get what they deserve, death and dismemberment. Sooner or later, America, will go the way of the Romans, the Mongols and the Huns. Already, America itself has become a police state. Its velvet gloves have always hid an iron fist. Now the gloves are off. Americans are finally learning what it's like to, live in an occupied country. Justice has come home to roost, and all in the name of patriotism. Patriotism is why "good Germans" went along with Hitler's imperialist ambitions. It's not a virtue. It's idolatry, a sin.
In a very real sense, those guys killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq are patriots, defending their country against a foreign invader. If the roles were reversed, most Americans would do exactly the same thing. Get real, people. They don't hate us for our freedoms. They hate us because we torture them, steal their resources and burn their children alive. US troops aren't in Afghanistan and Iraq to protect the American people. US troops are in Afghanistan and Iraq to make money for the military-industrial complex. "War," as Marine Gen. Smedley Butler so succinctly put it, "is a racket." America's foreign entanglements benefit no one but the rich. Wall Street gets the gold mine, Main Street gets the shaft.
Its best to fight this now. They r trying to expand this to amtrak trains and other forms of transportation. If we dont fight it now, we wont be able to travel anywhere without this intrusion. As it is now, areas within 100 miles of the border anywhere are constitution free zones. They can search you and/or your car without any cause at all to do so. We are a police state.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your actions with the TSA. They aren't making us any safer with these measures. I often wonder why the terrorists don't detonate a bomb within the security check area. They could kill hundreds that way.
ReplyDeleteI have to take issue with a couple of statements made by earlier posters:
1) "Racial profiling doesn't work." In the case of african-americans, hispanics, asians, etc. in general, I agree that it doesn't work; however, in the case of terrorist hijacking or bombing of aircraft, the perpetrators are almost exclusively Arab Muslims.
As for the Timothy McVeigh reference, he parked a truck bomb next to a building. Comparing that, or the Unibomber, to an aircraft hijacking is like comparing apples and oranges. Of course, there are many Muslims who are not Arabs, so racial profiling probably wouldn't work in any case.
2) "Firing a gun on an airplane will cause it to explosively decompress." This is a Hollywood myth and was busted on Mythbusters. Link: http://mythbustersresults.com/episode38
Basically, even if you shoot out a window, it will not explosively decompress; however, it will decompress non-explosively over the course of about 1:30. The cockpit glass is designed to withstand bird strikes, so a bullet is unlikely to penetrate it.
People are saying TSA should use questioning rather than searching for airport security. I disagree. The Bill of Rights says I don't have to answer questions from government officials, and I'm not going to answer questions. I'm not going to answer any questions - none. That is my right. Don't try to trample my right to remain silent to preserve my right to be free from illegal search and seizure. I want ALL my rights.
ReplyDeletePistole nor everyone else has the right to over step the Constitution. Every step of a process should be givien to Constitutional lawyers prior to implementing (oh wait, what was Obama's specialty?). Pistole is an FBI agent with no Constitutional knowledge or respect. During Wednesday's oversite those two ladies who giggle giggle "I've had my fair share of love pats" should be immediately removed from office. I also don't care about poll outcomes are on this topic. The 4th amendment and my expectation of bodily privacy is constant and is not modifiable by anyone.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting how short individuals' memories can be - all those complaining about the body scanner must have forgotten about Sept 11 2001. Perhaps this is the same bunch of people who had a lot to say about how a tragedy like 9-11 could happen. Maybe if we had this level of security back then, 9-11 could have been prevented. At least now there may be a greater level of reassurance when you board a plane that the person next to you may not be carrying a weapon or intend to bring the plane down. Why do we seem to forget that potential terrorists are always thinking ahead and are constantly planning different ways in which to bypass our security systems and technology? I watched the video with John Tyner complaining about the body scanning and pat down - first, the one or two persons who may see the body image do not see your face, and if you go through the body scan, you would not need a pat-down unless there is an alarm triggered. If even you do need a pat-down, you are told exactly what is going to be done and how, and as an alternative, you are offered a private screening. So if you want to complain, take a minute and consider all the people who were on the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the one that crashed in Pennsylvania. There were no survivors from any of these flights. I am sure that if any of these people had survived, they would be advising us to consider using the body scanner technology and to remember that the security procedures and mechanisms implemented by TSA is meant for our safety. TSA and Homeland Security came into existence based on recommendations from the 9-11 Commission Report , and for those who are saying that they prefer to revert to private security agencies handling security at the airports, then we are going right back to pre Sept 11 days, when private security let through all the hijackers, even though the majority of them triggered alarms that the private screeners never resolved.Read the 9-11 Report.
ReplyDeleteI think it is very distasteful for you to be drawing attention to yourself in this way.
Keep your head up John:) Those who are posting in here saying they are "appalled at the attention you're getting" and constantly defending the TSA perverts are obviously jealous because THEY are not in the spotlight doing such a brave thing as YOU have. I commend you;)
ReplyDeleteI have not forgotten about 9/11/2001 nor I have forgotten about 3/4/1789, the day the constitution became effective. If you are so scared of getting on a plane - may I suggest a pharmeseutical solution for you, rather than me getting sexually molested. Thank you, John.
ReplyDeleteSometimes people who don't expect to be thrust into the forefront of leadership are because of their very common sensical attitude towards an unjust and unfair practice. You sir are that person now. Thank you for calling to all of our attention the absurdity that is now airport screening.
ReplyDeleteIts a fantastic Blog.Whatever the nature of the offense that you have been charged with: assault, drunk driving, theft, drug charges, probation revocation, or any other misdemeanor or felony, you need an expert Austin Criminal Lawyer to handle your case.
ReplyDeleteI'm a former military member, and a former US DoD civilian employee, deployed on countless horrible overseas assignments (OIF and OEF included). Maybe, just maybe I have the credentials to effectively yet humbly rebut this respondent's comments. Try to recognize that we service members have been very carefully indoctrinated into this type of thinking. We recognize that the greatest among us simply do our jobs without questioning the policies that guide us, which often amount to fear mongering and manipulation by the government via the media. You falsely see John as abusing the freedom that we military members have bought at such a dear price, where in reality John's stand for reason has thrusted into the public view a very important issue that's ripe for debate. Good job John.
ReplyDeleteAll of you americans have "created" this situation. With all your 9/11 paranoia..who was really behind 9/11? With all the technology in the world today, do you really think that 'they' could fly a plane anywhere from the original flight corridors and not get intercepted ? NOT.
ReplyDeleteThen ..your governement shows up as a god and tells you they will protect you. Yes..by sending 100000's of men & women to get killed. Nice..wake up USA.
Buisness is based on getting people scared..while the people are scared, the governements contol everyone...and steal oil along the way.
wow, dude, you are a moron, no wonder you hide behind anonymity.
ReplyDeletePeople like you act like it was hard to hijack a plane in 2001, the fact of the matter is, our security was much more lax then, than it is now.
Don't focus on who I am..focus on what is written. I am a regular Canadian who happens to find all of this sad. Instead of being hostile to me, document yourself on what your country does.
ReplyDeleteOh! Are you familiar with what your 'Army' is and was able to do in 2001? Please read..read about your country. Read about the gazillions of YOUR money spent to supposedly protect you.
You people brag about your superpowers, and when it fails...it's because it was more ''lax'' back then.
..Oh ! and go have your grotch felt-up just to board an aircraft. Ghezzz..
FYI, the chemical swab is a joke. Was flying back in 2001 a week prior to 9/11, and they swabbed my carry-on bag and cleared me through. It was only after I was in the air that I realized this was the duffel bag I use for target shooting, and it has had a lot of ammo and gunpowder in it over the years. Make of that as you will I guess......
ReplyDeleteI wrote a letter to my congressperson today. I have been following the recent developments as best I can, and I am glad to see that Americans are finally starting to realize that the ludicrous new TSA behaviour, since November 1, is verging upon the very grounds of the terrorism it seeks to protect us from.
ReplyDeleteBelow is the letter that I wrote. I strongly encourage anyone, and everyone, who has an understanding of the balance between pubilc safety and public humiliation to copy it, change what you want, and send it to your own congressperson.
To the Honorable _______:
I am writing to ask you to co-sponsor H.R. 6416, the American Traveler Dignity Act.
I am disgusted and terrified of the highly personal, sexual searches going on in our nation's airports. Not only am I a rape survivor, but I am a young government employee, who finds the disrespectful, nearly vulgar behavior being exhibited by TSA agents a shameful representation of all that for which my organization stands.
The ionizing radiation and DNA-destroying wave outputs of the so-called "Advanced Imaging Technology" machines being employed, as the only option to avoid being molested in public, should be deemed unconstitutional.
As an upstanding American citizen, I have the right to travel as I choose, including by means of aviation. The government does not have the right to prevent me from traveling by threatening me - one may even go to the extreme of viewing this behavior as terrorism, the very thing that the National Security Administration is attempting to avoid.
“Terrorism: violence, or the threat of violence, carried out for political purposes.”
“National Security: The protection or the safety of a country’s secrets and its citizens."
Though the TSA may feel that they offer a “choice” between possible skin cancer, publicly-viewed nude pictures, or sexual assault, I revoke any of these options, and as my representative in congress, I demand that you stand up for my freedom of unmolested movement.
There is a better answer to public safety than public humiliation.
Please immediately sign on as a co-sponsor to H.R. 6416, the American Traveler Dignity Act, and get it to the President's desk right away, before I must subject myself to another unwarranted exhumation of past trauma.
Thank you,
___________
Did I forget 9/11, the shoe bomber and the underwear one? What I remember is that each time, the authorities blamed failed intelligence. Early this year, President Obama himself admitted "The intelligence was there, we failed to connect the dots".
ReplyDeleteWill looking at you, your children, virtually naked or sexually assaulting you, them, help to better "connect the dots"? I don't think so.
The recent poll shows me that 80% of the Americans are one strike away from giving up their freedom not only in the airports but anytime, anywhere.
Me, like those who signed underneath the "We the people", I prefer to die free than to live as a slave of my fears.
If you don't, fine, but then stop sending the troops oversees to defend the freedoms you don't have anymore (which exactly what the "terrorists" want).
Everyone is willing to let those few members of society who fly regularly to be violated because most people don't fly all that often, BUT just wait until a terrorist decides to bomb a mall, while the TSA is feeling up 5 year olds, THEN WHAT. We will see what people really think about these procedures when they are in every mall, school, and public building!!!
ReplyDeleteKudos John, Kudos.
ReplyDeleteIts time to take a stand against government overreach. The TSA and our government is out of control. they need to take a lesson from Israel. the answer to airline security is not the porno-scanners nor the fell me up TSA hand groping. No - what is most effective is the profiling (gasp - I know some find that distasteful but lets be real here who are the real threats - its not the 80 year old grandmother or 9 year old child) and astute security agents questioning travelers
Sadly, the "leave them alone" method of dealing with terrorism doesn't work, either. Terrorists, whether domestic terrorists like the OK City bomber, or foreign ones like Al Qaida, have delusions about the world that most other people in similar circumstances do not.
ReplyDeleteMost Christians did not and do not see the federal government as an agent of evil, but McVeigh did. So much, in fact, that he was perfectly willing to murder innocent people, including any passers-by and the children in the daycare located in the building he blew up.
Most Moslems don't see the US as out to get them; although, the way some Americans treat fellow Americans who are Moslem, I could understand some mistrust. Even those, however, are not willing to violate their own religious laws and murder innocents in the name of religion.
Therefore, whatever Western society does as a whole will never be good enough for extremists. With nutcakes like that out there, extreme precautions must be taken. If you don't care for these precautions, don't fly. How simple is that?
[We need to start treating them with dignity and respect and not like the very terrorists of whom we have now become so afraid.]
ReplyDeleteBingo. Well said, right there. That is the exact thing I've been telling others.
It's too bad nobody is listening, yet. This will still get a lot worse before it gets better. Keep bringing the truth, Johnny. You may not consider yourself a hero, but anyone willing to spread truth all the time, not just when convenient, is a hero to me.
Where is the legal case at so far? Have they yet taken any further steps after they escorted out of the area? We are no safer today than we were 10 years ago when it comes to flying. The terrorists won and no one can say otherwise. Our freedoms and personal rights were revoked without a vote by the people and that was the goal. The war against terror starts here at home. Terror is defined as living in a state of fear and who are we really afraid of? Not someone thousands of miles away in the Middle East, we are afraid of our own government who are willing to assault us under the claim of National Security then when we try to speak out we are threatened with imprisonment and/or outrageous fines. We need security at our airports. But the level of security must be reasonable relative to the potential threat.
ReplyDelete@Glenn: I haven't heard anything (directly) from anyone at the TSA or the federal government, for that matter, since leaving the airport that day.
ReplyDeleteIn John's position, I would have done exactly the same thing. I don't think that our government has the right to sexually molest air passengers, or force them into devices that are unhealthy, and display our genitalia to strangers, regardless of their official capacity.
ReplyDeleteThat's the bottom line.
And I feel sorry for anyone who disagrees, because you're clearly beyond help if you are willing to be intimately violated by people you don't know, FOR TRANSPORTATION.
Even prostitutes have the self-respect to demand a higher price.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty
ReplyDeleteto purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
--Benjamin Franklin